Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to Everyday Redemption, a podcast of perimeter counseling. We believe God is at work in the ordinary moments of our lives, bringing healing, growth and redemption day by day. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Join me along with my co host Kathy Chang as we talk with counselors and special guests about everyday struggles of life and how the Gospel meets us in every season.
We are excited to welcome Darby Strickland today. She is a faculty member and counselor at CCEF where she has served since 2003. She has an MDIV with a counseling emphasis from Westminster Seminary. She's contributed to the Church Cares and pca, Domestic abuse and sexual assault church training materials. She's also written a handful of many books and contributed to several other books.
A couple books though. One is Is it abuse? Published in 2020 and then relevant to our topic today is When It's Trauma, which was published just last year in 2025. So, Darby, thank you for joining us.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Oh, my pleasure to be with you both.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you so much.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: So trauma is a word that is popular in our culture and that's why we want to talk about it. It's one of the words that has become really part of the cultural vocabulary.
And I think as counselors and as Christians, when words and ideas and topics become culturally relevant, it's really important to think about it from a biblical perspective. And how does God's wisdom, God's word, speak to this idea, this topic? So just in light of your years of experience working with trauma self sufferers, give us some insight in why this word is coming about maybe in the last decade.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say there's definitely a greater awareness of the word. And so when people start to have language for their experience, you know, the word traumatic, you know, it was a traumatic experience.
It makes sense to them. So we're going to hear people talking about things that, you know, historically might have gone unnamed or even minimized. We think about like when the vets came back from some of the war, you know, in the 40s and 70s, there weren't really words, you know, PTSD hadn't even been diagnosed or there, you know, there just wasn't, there wasn't language around what people were experiencing. So I think as the word comes on the scene, people are mapping their experience onto the word.
At the same time, I think we're also living in a world where many people are willing to speak about things that historically they didn't. People are much more willing to talk about sexual assault and childhood abuse.
The MeToo movement kind of opened up, you Know, some people criticize the MeToo movement for various aspects, but one of the things it did was talk about the frequency of abuse, lifted some of the stigma of abuse. And so people are more willing to share their stories where suffering might have been historically hidden or. Yeah. Shame around it.
And I think we're just living in a world where there's just a lot of instability, there's a lot of exposure.
We're more connected through technology, some more and more aware of different other people's stories.
So it's just. Yeah, we're just kind of saturated our culture with a lot of the harder aspects of life, which we used to not historically be.
[00:03:44] Speaker C: Mm.
I love what you just shared, and thank you so much for kind of bringing to light just people's experiences. And so what you talked about was mostly how it is helpful that these. This word has entered into our culture, gives people language, which is so important.
But when a word becomes very kind of common in the culture, it also kind of takes a life of its own. Are there ways that it's. It can be unhelpful to have the word be kind of everywhere?
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Sure. Like, I. I talk about as little t trauma. Right. Things that we would probably actually classify as meeting a definition of. There wasn't a traumatic event, and a person has been overwhelmed emotionally, physically, and spiritually, and then there's little t. Trauma. Like, we. We use it all the time. You know, I can. You know, I've even flippantly said that was really traumatic, like reading. Referring to something minor. You know, I think of, like, some, you know, hearing someone. They couldn't open their locker at school, or they felt really embarrassed in a moment. Right. So they're trying to capture something of the experience. I was overwhelmed or humiliated or I was suffering, but it's not. They weren't suffering for six months in a way that totally overwhelmed their ability to relate to their body and the world around them and the Lord.
So I say trauma is a very pregnant word.
And we're working with sufferers. We want to try to understand their particular experience.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: Experience.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: I think Scripture gives us better words in a sense. You know, it talks about deep anguish, deep suffering, failing to have words for things all. You know, there's such. Such a great vocabulary in Scripture that covers the spectrum of suffering.
So, yeah, I think as we're sitting with people, we want to be locating, where on the spectrum are they falling, as all suffering is important to us.
At the same time, I think people like the word trauma because it helps them explain that their body is suffering. Right?
Yeah. And it just gives more understanding if they're experiencing some of the bodily impacts. And yet I think we can suffer in ways that we're still sleepless or having a panic attack even though we haven't had a traumatic event. So it all gets jumbled up. Um, I think the most important thing is to know the person who you're talking to, what happened to them and how has that impacted them. Um, and I think that's just more precious than a word or any word in particular, actually.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Hmm. Yeah. Any. Anytime you minimize or, or you try to package so many things into one word, it can be problematic. Right. Um, kind of impossible to do.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's. We tend to do that in our culture. You know, I say we talk in euphemisms and so we don't really know what somebody means when they're saying something.
Right. Even when you say, I think another euphemism that we use or shortcut word is like, I've been abused.
What does that mean? Right. When we start to talk about it in particulars, you know, this 42 year old man did this to me when I was six. Six. And we describe the act, we actually get a sense of the horror and what happened.
Right. Or Right. So it's the, it is really in the details of what happened.
And we tend to gloss over things by using imprecise language because it's uncomfortable to share the details.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
And you, you touched on this already talking about. Often there's a, like a physical component that trauma, word touches. But would you define kind of what, maybe within that, what you said, big T trauma, like actual traumatic event. Traumatization, Describe what those events are.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, this is really tricky. Right. Already like the word trauma where we're describing a person's.
The impact of a traumatic event or series of events on a person. So trauma is a way that we tend to describe an impact or the ongoing impact of an event or series of events. Right. How it shapes a person's body, emotion, their relationships or their relationships with the Lord and traumas means those things have been overwhelmed and they really impact a person's ability to flourish.
Traumatic event. Right. And that's an experience.
And we think of them, right. It could be a horrific car accident or it could be a series of events, growing up in an abusive home or being an oppressed spouse. Right. So even the language there is tricky because many people can live through a traumatic event. Two people can live through the same traumatic event and one Person walk away traumatized. Right. Or experiencing the impacts of trauma and the other not. And so, again, it's tricky. And that's why I think it's best just to really think about the person in front of you and what happened to them and what are the particular ways that that event has continued to impact them moving forward in their life.
[00:09:15] Speaker C: I think that's such a. I appreciate that distinction between the actual event and then the ongoing impact because it's important for us to realize that many people experience traumatic events, not everyone experiences trauma.
And I love. It strikes me just again when you say we want to see the person in front of us. And I think that's such an important thing to remember because sometimes for us as a listener or a helper or someone walking alongside, we feel more in control when we have boxes or categories or things that, you know, help us. But what you're sharing is just loving the person and knowing the person and entering into the details. And I think that's so valuable to keep in mind. So thank you for that.
You did mention, and we've touched on it already, that there are different impacts of trauma and it can look like different things.
So for those who are wondering, who are listening, who are wondering, maybe, maybe I am experiencing trauma or maybe someone I care about is experiencing trauma.
What might be just some key indicators that someone is experiencing what we'll call trauma?
What are some signs sufferers might not realize could be of a traumatic event?
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah. In the book I Talk, I frame the experience of trauma as an exilic experience, right? Where you're dislocated from where you were deeply rooted, even in just the ability to worship and relate to people.
And I think that's just really helpful to think about it as trauma has this dislocating experience, right. It's more than just hurt. It actually rearranges how a person lives.
And we think about, what would that look like? It could look like ongoing anxiety, feeling unsafe even in safe environments.
Just the idea of hypervigilance, needing to be on guard.
And that could be in your environment. I was hit by a car one time when I was on a bike.
And for a long time after I heard tire screeching, my whole body, right, Became really hyper vigilant and my heart would race, right. Like there's something of the past that's now shaking in me. And even if the screeching was far away, right. Something is intruding into the present of the memories. And just, again, it could be strong emotional reactions that seem unproportionate or disproportionate to current events.
And so the other side is going to be like numbness or disconnection. You're so overwhelmed, you're avoiding a lot of things.
What we tend to see is a lot of stress, anxiety, GI issues, just the inability to be at peace spiritually, but also physically inability to concentrate, constant physical tension and just a lot of self doubt. Could have guilt or shame. Am I responsible?
But just being, thinking about the event and it reshaping how you're looking at your current relationships and the world around you, there's a lot of ways that it can manifest itself.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: I mean that's tremendous what you just shared. Basically, trauma touches every part of your life in the way you see the world. And I appreciate so much your use of the language of exile and even referring to your previous book. Is it abuse? I think that framework of exile and in the abuse book, the framework of oppression is a really helpful way for us as believers to think about what we've been experiencing.
So, you know, I recently finished your book, which I got it last year and then in preparation for this, I finally got to reading it and well done.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah, so thankful.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's so, so helpful because what you provided is a really biblical and Christ centered way to think about trauma. And at the same time it's also really practical.
And the one, one of the chapters, I mean they're all so good, but one of the chapters that really struck me was the chapter on shame.
And you highlight in there just the profound impact of shame for the trauma sufferer. But you also note that it's a universal experience. We all experience shame to some extent. So could you maybe briefly just walk us through how do we think about shame?
What's the impact of shame and maybe how God relates to us in the midst of that?
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I think shame in the context of trauma is often different or nuanced a little bit differently in the sense of sometimes what happened to you, the traumatic event is that somebody defiled you, harmed you or violated you. And now you're left wondering, am I worthy? Am I lovable? Am I defiled because of what has happened to me?
Which scripture speaks directly to that, that is not true, but that, that is often the felt experience. Sometimes the shame is I, I believe I should have prevented that.
Or maybe, you know, it was a car accident where you were distracted or hadn't slept well and there's, you know, there is some real guilt, but over time it morphs into your identity. So Guilt is something you. Ed talks. Ed Welsh talks about this so well. Right. Guilt is something that you believe that you've done that you can repent for. And there's a clear remedy in Scripture for shame kind of carries a much larger indictment that something is wrong with you. It's about who you are.
And trauma often has an accusing voice along with it, particularly when it takes the form of abuse. Because often the abuser is saying, you deserve this treatment.
And oftentimes as people even experiencing.
Yeah. Deep suffering and coming to somebody for help, sometimes helpers don't even recognize that they're implying that, you know, you should be over this by now, or what did you do to contribute to this?
Even just in some of the questions we ask sufferers to distance ourselves from them. Suffering imputes shame on people.
So when you will find trauma, you will find shame.
And it's just saying to the person, there's something particularly wrong with you.
And victims, sadly, are always looking to blame themselves for what has happened. So it sticks to them a little bit differently and not in a way the Lord wants to lift that.
That is not your identity.
You are not what happened to you. Nobody should ever harm you. There's no reason for that, ever.
But again, in trauma, because of the damage done, the shame is particularly sticky.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: You mentioned something very briefly there, that sometimes when we're helping other people, it could be a friendship, could be a pastor, counselor, any role that we say things. But there's a temptation in saying something where what we're actually doing is distancing ourself.
Say more about that. And then how do we. How do we actually come near instead of distancing?
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think when we come close to people who have experienced horrors, one thing that we want to do is believe that that would never happen to me.
And so we do what I. We. So we tend to subtly blame victims for their suffering. Way of making ourselves feel safer. Right. So I remember a woman came to my church who had lost a son to a drug overdose, and people in the church were saying, well, that's why I moved out of that school district. Right. It was their way of distancing themselves by saying, I make better choices, therefore, I'm inoculated against the impacts of. Of the fall. Which is ridiculous. Right.
It. Anybody is vulnerable in our world to horrible things. We don't.
And I. We just do that as humans, you know, And I think more naturally, you know, we hear someone about lung cancer, we think, well, I didn't smoke. Right. Because we we want to keep. Right. Suffering at a distance from ourselves versus living as. I don't know what the Lord has planned for me. Um, this is a very broken world. The Lord does promise it, suffering, even for his people.
Um. And yeah, so in order to really enter in to people who carry these hard stories there, the side effect is that we do feel vulnerable. Right. Like, when I hear stories of trauma, I do feel vulnerable. Um, you know, I'm more aware, Right. I'm more. I don't send my children to sleepovers. Right.
Because of what I've heard. So sometimes I take precaution measures based on patterns. Other times it is. There's nothing I can do. And I just recognize, gosh, like, well, what if my husband were to die? Right. So there's just no way that we can show up in someone's life who have suffered greatly and not let it impact us or change the way we imagine the world.
But I think, you know, we entrust those things to the Lord. We work on that, and then we're able to stay present with someone who's suffering.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: We have to take ourselves out of the center of the story.
But that. That's hard to do, actually. Right. We don't want to come close to things that we fear.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah. It takes that. It actually. And it takes a intentional effort to do, to stay present there. And I think about how Isaiah 53 is coming to mind, how crutch bore our griefs, how he.
He physically took on some of our suffering on us.
And then how Paul says, as you bear one another's burdens, you so fulfill the law of Christ. How there's a calling, as Christ is bore. We actually can kind of bear one another's burdens. That's what I'm thinking of, the call to bear one another's burdens as.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And Jesus, right. He didn't. He didn't stay away from situations that would contaminate him or that were hard to see. Right. He really moved close and. Yeah. He sat with people in grief.
Yeah. And the more we see him in the New Testament, how.
Yeah. His pursuit of the vulnerable, the harmed.
Yeah, it is. It's. We see that It. It challenges our calling.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Right.
I'm thinking of early in Gospel, Mark, maybe chapter. Maybe chapter one, where he engages the leper. And he just. The shocking.
He touches him, and Howard documents that he touches the leper. And it's just a. If you really look at it, really look at the biblical context, wow, that's a shocking event that Jesus would do that.
But that just type of thing shape our ministry. Right.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Without. Right. Without regard for himself.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:21:06] Speaker C: If we could. You had also, when you were speaking earlier, you had briefly said that many times sufferers of trauma will want to blame themselves for that. And could you just speak to us a little bit more about why that is and what.
What does that do for them in that moment? Or why would they blame themselves for something that from an outside perspective is to. At least to an outsider would feel like, oh, it's clearly not your fault.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I think probably for the same reason. Right. If. If I can figure out what I did to make that happen, I don't have to worry about it happening again.
Again. It's that. It's an. It's another way to, I don't want to say regain control, but in a sense, it's saying, if I know there's something I could have done different than I know I can keep myself safe.
That's part of it.
Part of it. The other reason is often they. If it is abuse with child abuse or domestic abuse, their perpetrator has blamed them.
And the other part of it is sadly, often many members of the church, as they've told their story, they often are blamed for their suffering.
They're told if they would have taken a different choice.
But I have found that so many people who have suffered traumatic events go back in time. If only I didn't. If only I didn't. Right. If there was a house fire. If only I didn't.
And it's just a huge, sad burden to carry. And like you said, people on the outside, we. We can see that they're not culpable, but that is often a place that people get stuck.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: I mean, it really just makes you feel a compassion for those who are suffering in this way, experience something so hard, and then to feel responsible in the midst of that, what a heavy load they are carrying.
I guess, kind of in light of that, you know, a lot of people who will be listening to this podcast are not necessarily pastors or counselors.
They might maybe feel unqualified to walk alongside someone who has experienced something really hard. But, you know, for those who are not professionally trained, but who are in the life of someone who's suffering, what encouragement maybe would you give them or what practical.
Just words that would help them to really faithfully love someone who's suffering like this.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: I think they actually play a larger role in healing. Often more. Even more so, even in a counselor. When I see people who.
Yeah. Are really suffering with traumatic experiences. When church members or friends come around them, their healing takes about a third of the time.
So it is a huge and vital role to play. And it's quite simple actually, right?
You don't have to understand everything about trauma to be profoundly helpful. What sufferers actually need is someone who knows that they can't fix it, right? So if you have a friend who's experienced something horrendous going in and just saying, I can't fix this, nothing I could say could make this better.
But I can stay and sit with them, I can listen to them, I can offer tangible means of care.
And it's just the way that we're embodying Jesus's presence and nearness, his commitment to remain with them, that speaks volumes more than words ever can.
And it's just giving people the opportunity to share what they're willing to share and listen, right?
I even think about in our own lives, when do we get the opportunity to talk extended with a friend, even for a half hour, and someone listened to our heart? That's just a sweet gift. And when you're able to do that for a trauma sufferer, whether it's about their trauma or something else, you're really providing them with something quite tender.
And the other thing I would encourage in that is to know that sitting with someone in their tears is profoundly helpful. So few places in our culture are people allowed to weep. And I would often say, you know, crying, there's nothing worse than crying alone.
So even if all you're doing is sitting with someone and handing them tissues and giving them permission to grieve over what's been lost or what's happened, that's just profoundly restorative. You're saying there's no shame in crying.
I'm sad with you.
Most of us, right, we have the instinct, we want to make it stop, but.
And the person often, you know, wants to stop crying. I always say, you know, they use a tissue to kind of push their tears back in their face. But if we can be people who are comfortable that other people's tears can fall around us, that's. That's healing in and of itself. And again, it's not profound, but it does require pushing some past uncomfortability.
Um, but knowing you're actually doing something, being quiet and still and listening is actually doing something you are helping.
Wow.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: That there's so much popping into my head right now, as you say, and my heart is full and encouraged too, at how much power we have as a present image Bearer of Christ interview with another person.
One of my good friends, Dr. Nate Brooks and I were talking about this. He said sometimes we've pathologized sadness in our culture.
He told me that one time. I was like, that's really, I think, true. We don't allow for those tears, that pain to have a place.
But when you look at the psalms, there's generally accepted about five genres of psalms and I've heard of them are lament psalms, a cry to God in pain and suffering.
And as you were talking, I was thinking of Psalm 56, how, how David says that God has this bottle where he catches our tears and he remembers one of those. And how, man, maybe that's a part of a call for someone who's suffering and be walking alongside someone is. Maybe I could help catch some of those tears.
That was the image that was coming to mind as you said, as you talked about being a safe place for tears to fall.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that's true. And again, I think a micro way to explain that in our everyday lives is we really do that with children, right. That when they're upset, we try to rush them through them being upset. We want them to be okay, we tell them to stop crying. Right. We're uncomfortable with people being sad versus saying, oh gosh, maybe my child is sad because they didn't get invited to a birthday party.
That's, that's a reason to be sad. So let's talk about why that's sad. Right?
But we, we rush people through sadness. I think if we're. And so if we're doing it with the small things, we're doing it with our children.
We're not preparing our children to be sad for the larger and harder things. But we're also not preparing ourselves to sit in other people's sadness, particularly when there's these grievous things that are extremely lamentable.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
And maybe if we haven't been prepared growing up to be sad, it's okay to be sad in this culture that we don't realize how that's affecting us and how we want to stuff those tears back with the tissues. And I'm thinking about my, I've got three boys, my middle one is a six year old and then I've got a four year old as well. And they like to tussle a little bit and.
But the temptation is to get them to quickly forgive each other. But even yesterday, I, I don't. Charlie's his name. Charlie's talking about being, you know, his Brother hit him or yelled at him or took his car. And I said, how you feeling? Sad, you know?
You know, even. But just. Even just, hey, buddy. I feel. I would feel sad, too, if somebody took my.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: And the way that he kind of just moved toward me and just was. But I often don't do that. This is like, that's. That's maybe like one proud dad moment of 50 failures. So it's not like I'm doing that
[00:29:48] Speaker A: all the time, but I just noticed his different response.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Noticed a different response. He said he came, gave me a hug, and that he wanted to go toward his brother.
It was just a different experience than.
You need to forgive your brother.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Well, now that I feel seen and known and loved, I'm free, right. I'm free to do what God has asked me.
And that's what's so beautiful.
In some ways, I think that's, you know, connecting people to Christ in the midst of deep anguish, you know, when they can feel seen and deeply known by the Lord in scripture. Right.
Then there's a different freedom that comes with that. Yeah.
[00:30:35] Speaker C: I love so much of what you have shared here. I really am so thankful for what you. The words that you shared about those people who are walking alongside sufferers and just how much their presence means and can be a help and a support, a comfort and encouragement, and even just that visual of just sitting and handing someone tissues.
I want our listeners to know how valuable those moments of being present really are.
As we wrap up here, I kind of just want to give you space to share with us anything else that you feel like you would want people to know, either those who are helping or even maybe someone who's listening who is suffering in this way. Is there a word of encouragement or just any. Any kind of final thoughts that you might have?
[00:31:22] Speaker A: One of the things I think it's important to mention is that healing from trauma is often very slow. And that's one. Actually, the markers of trauma is how long the journey of healing is. And we don't measure it in days or weeks or even months. Sometimes we're actually measuring it in years. And so even just recognizing. We're not asking people to forget what happened to them or pretend that it didn't happen to them. We're asking them to learn to live with this in this new reality where the world is fragile, where they've been harmed, where they've experienced great loss and restoring.
Yeah. Their ability to live in and among people and before the Lord is something that we do.
We anchor them in Christ's presence. And that's going to just take a long time because a lot has happened to them. And so it's a slow, steady work. And so if you are a sufferer, not to be discouraged, like, why is this taking so long? I still feel this way. Or if you are a helper, to be discouraged, there's. That God is faithful along the journey, and there's a lot of incremental growth and beauty along the way.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: And God is. God is the one who is. I think about Romans 8 and the picture of Jesus.
Well, think about the curse of this world and how the Holy Spirit comes alongside us and groans with. Groanings too deep for words. That he is. He is so connected with experiencing our. Our suffering, our traumas, our exilic experiences here that he would feel those even in himself.
And that's a powerful picture of.
He is. He is the one who cares the most. And we are just a mirror of that.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: And he did something about it. Right.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:17] Speaker A: And I think that's, like, the beauty of the cross. Like, we often think the cross is to take away our sin. Amen. Right. And we need that every day, every hour. But it also put in. Did something about the sins and injustices done to us.
Yeah. And I think that is a deep hope for people who have suffered.
Yeah. That's such a good word.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So good. Well, Darby, we could talk to you for a long time, but we're gonna. We're gonna pause here, and hopefully maybe we have other conversations with you down the road. But thank you so much for joining us.
So grateful for just your years, and just thank you for your years of labor and this really hard work.
We're drawing from your experience here, and so many are blessed by it. Thank you for writing the book. I know writing papers for me, it was hard. That's like 20 pages, you know, in grad school. So think about writing a book. I know that's a Mount Everest thing.
Thank you.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: The labor of love.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: Well, thank you for joining, and thank you guys for listening. And until next time, look forward to you guys being with us.
