Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Everyday Redemption, a podcast of Perimeter Counseling. We believe God is at work in the ordinary moments of our lives, bringing healing, growth and redemption day by day. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Join me along with my co host Kathy Chang as we talk with counselors and special guests about everyday struggles of life and how the gospel meets us in every season.
We're here with a special guest, Jonathan Holmes.
Jonathan is the founder and executive director of Fieldstone Counseling. He's the current interim director of CCEF Christian Counseling Educational foundation, and he's also an instructor at Westminster Theological Seminary. He has written a few books, the Company We Keep, Counsel for Couples, Rescue Skills and Rescue Plan.
And he has a wife, Jennifer, and four daughters. He also is going to be talking to us about his newest book, Grounded in Grace.
It's about helping kids build their identity in Christ.
And just a side note here, Jonathan is a friend of Perimeter Counseling. From the very beginning, we've been helped by our counseling center. It's partly because Jonathan helped us get started. He's a dear friend and helper, especially in the very beginning and understanding in my research how to build a counseling center. And it was very generous. And so thank you, Jonathan, for your time and thank you for giving more time to us today.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: My pleasure. My pleasure. This is such a treat to be on with you guys today.
Awesome.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: Well, let's hop in with your book.
Could you kind of paint a picture here? Why did you feel like a book like this was needed in our current culture and climate?
[00:01:53] Speaker B: It's a great question. You know, one of the things, I mean, all three of us are in the counseling room a lot with parents, maybe parents at our church, parents at our kids, sports games, parents in the neighborhood.
And I don't know about you, but pretty much every week I hear some conversation about a kid who's struggling with some type of mental health issue.
Maybe it's struggles at school. Maybe it's depression, anxiety, suicidality. I mean, the things that our kids and teens are facing today, it's just absolutely heartbreaking. And, you know, I'd be sitting across from parents trying to help them think out loud together about why, you know, why is this going on? Why is this happening? And one of the things I noticed, friends, is that a lot of times we'll spend a lot of energy on the tip of the iceberg. So the actual struggle and what I actually was beginning to discover in some of those conversations is once you start exploring underneath some of those struggles, a lot of those struggles relate back to identity. They relate Back to who am I, why am I here, and what am I doing with my life? Right. So, you know, kids with anxiety today, right? We've, we've told them, listen, you can be whoever you want to be, accomplish whatever you want to, and then they launch off into life and realize, oh, life's hard, and there's a lot of hard things, and things are scary and fearful, and what do I do with that? And if I don't have a strong sense of identity, who I am, then it becomes really difficult to figure out what am I to do and how am I to feel and how am I to operate. And so that's why I think addressing the identity issues a lot of times is probably our best bet in tackling some of these just tougher and more sticky mental health issues that our kids and teens are facing today.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. On page 13 in your book, you've got a really helpful chart and three ways identity is formed. I love that it's very simple. One of the columns or the rows there is what constitutes the core of who you are. When you say there's a traditional formation, a modern. On a gospel, you say traditional, you are what you do.
Modern, it's you are what you feel. And gospel is you are an image bearer, the living God. Would you just talk about that? And related to what you just said about importance of identity, Well, I want
[00:04:22] Speaker B: to give all the credit for so many of those ideas to Tim Keller. All I did was try to arrange them in some type of memorable way. But as I said in the acknowledgments of the book, Tim's writings on this in particular were so formative for me. So I want to make sure that I give him that due credit. You know, when you think about identity and what constitutes who you are as an individual, I'd say for the greater part of human history, you were what you did. So you grew up in a family, you know, 5th century England, and your dad was a farmer. Guess what you were going to be? You were going to be a farmer, and that was your identity. You were a farmer in 5th century England, and that was your entire identity. It was where you lived, what you did, how you grew up. Everything was pretty much, I would say, predetermined for you. Like, you didn't really get a lot of choice.
You begin to see a major change in identity formation at the turn of the modern century. I would say late 20th century, where that shift of authority of you are what you do, and it's defined largely outside of you, that authority then began to move to the individual. So now you are what you want to be, you are what you feel. And so identity, instead of it being given identity, is now created and discovered. So I dig into my feelings and I wrestle with them and, okay, who? Who do I think I am? What do I want to be? And I wrestle with those thoughts and feelings and I come out into the world and I say, world, this is who I am. Accept me, affirm me.
That's, you know, somewhat truncated, but I think you guys get the gist.
Both of those forms of identity formation, friends, I would say there are probably some strengths to both of those, but neither of them, I think, paint the full picture that actually gospel identity is, which is, at the end of the day, your identity is received and not achieved. And that identity that you receive is defined for us in Genesis 1, when God says, let us make man in our image. And being an image bearer of God is the core part of what we might call theological anthropology. It is the core part of defining, who am I, why am I here, and what am I supposed to do?
All of that is received to us by virtue of being an image bearer of a living God.
[00:06:40] Speaker C: Thanks, Jonathan. That's so helpful just to have that paradigm.
And I definitely want to commend to anybody who's listening, Karen's, especially the whole book, and it is mercifully short for busy parents.
Really just so thoughtful and really helpful. We kind of want to focus in a little bit on the last couple of chapters of your book that deal with gender identity and sexuality. Our current, this season of our podcast is focusing on current issues. And, you know, obviously these are topics that are really front and center in a lot of our conversations.
And so as we think about kind of the current climate that we're in, I think it's so important for parents and for all of us really to have a strong understanding, a good grounding of how Scripture addresses these very important topics, because I think it's so easy for us to form a lot of our opinions based on our experiences, based on media, political convictions, friend groups, what our kids are experiencing, or just our gut feelings.
So with regard to broadly kind of gender identity, could you maybe outline for us just a few principles that are helpful for parents to hold onto as they navigate these conversations with their children?
A lot of times these conversations are going to feel sort of countercultural. They're not. It's not the air that the kids are breathing right now in the world. So what are some principles broadly?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Well, Kathy and Caleb, you know, One of the things I'll say even here is that I'll offer a few principles. But one of the things I would encourage parents to know is you've got to take these principles and you got to put them in your language as you disciple kids. So if you just come to your kid and say, hey, I heard this talking point on this podcast about vendor, you know, like my kids, they're going to be like, you know, you'll get an eye roll or a shrug of the shoulders. You know, Paul Tripp has this great line in one of his parenting books. He says, don't, don't try to squeeze hundred dollar conversations into dime sized moments.
And you know what he means there is don't try to, you know, fit the most pithy piece of truth that you can into some of these moments where kids, you know, are busy, they're not paying attention and you know, you, you meet up against these difficult moments where you' to, you know, be helpful, disciple your kids and your kids are like, you know, stay away or I don't want to be bothered. So all that being said, take what I'm about to say and find ways to meaningfully weave this into conversation. So, you know, here's one of the first things is gender is a gift. Gender is a good gift from God.
And that in and of itself is revolutionary in our culture, right, where gender is largely seen as a social construct. It's something that is self discoverable and self defined, right? So again, you dig deep inside your feelings, you figure it out. Do I feel male, do I feel female, do I want to identify as male or female or something in between? And then I come out to the world and I demand affirmation and acceptance.
And we've really moved in that direction to where we've completely, I think, erase God out of the equation.
And so parents, one of the things I would say is when you talk about gender, when you talk about being male and female, describe the goodness of it being a gift that God gives to us. When God made male and female in Genesis 1, it wasn't a mistake. It wasn't a, you know, hey, we just need equitable division of domestic labor in the garden. So we're going to make a helper for Adam to do that.
It actually is a rhythm that we see in Genesis 1. If God creates binaries, light and dark, land and sea, land animals, sea animals that complementary complement each other in ways that God says is good. And so when we get to the end of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 and he creates two binaries of a male and a female. It shouldn't surprise us that the pronouncement is, this is very good. It's just not good. It's very good.
And I think sometimes we just, we don't communicate that to our kids. So I'll give you a silly example. The other, you know, I have four girls, so I live in girl world.
At dinner the other day, one of my girls said something about boys, and she said this afina comment. She said, boys have so much more fun than girls.
I said, why? She said, boys are just so much more fun. And, you know, I wish I was that. And, you know, it was just a. It was a teaching moment. I didn't try to, you know, ram, you know, Bible study, you know, into the middle of the conversation, but I just said, I go, being a girl is great.
I go, being a girl is great. God created you to be a girl, and girls can have just as much fun as boys can. And then, you know, we kept eating dinner. Right. But. But it's a moment like that where I affirm to my kids, gender is a good gift from God. And so if God created you as a female, praise God, that is very good. If God created you as a male, praise God. That's very good. So when we're thinking about gender identity, that is, I would say that's the very starting point that I want to begin in conversation with my kids.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to go back to that conversation.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: And what. So if that conversation happens with someone who's not the counseling director of Fieldstone Counseling and is not thinking about, you know, all the different angle, maybe they're trying to shove a hundred dollars worth into, you know, a dime conversation. What. What might be. What would you have been tempted to say?
Yeah, to your daughter? What. What are some pitfalls in a. And not that you handled that. There could have been 100 ways you could have handled that, but what are symptoms parents might feel in. In conversations like that?
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I tried to use a little bit of humor to deflect it. You know, maybe, you know, maybe some parents maybe move into, like a helicopter mode of. Well, why are you saying that? Who told you that?
You know, what are you reading? What? You know, like a little bit more of suspicion, like you're being influenced by some woke ideology that I need to root out of you now.
And so it can be, again, what I would call an overreaction. And a lot of times in parenting, I'm trying to help parents understand. Do you Tend towards overreaction or underreaction. You know, Scripture is moving us towards what is thoughtful, wise responsiveness. Right. And that's the call of the day. Right.
It's a timely spoken word. Or I like how Paul puts it in Ephesians 4. 29. He says, we want communication that fits the occasion. And just that word fits the occasion. What that means is that every single thing I say to my kids is attenuate and contextualized to who they are. The need of the moment.
What does wise love say in this moment? You know, David Pallison, who, you know, we all admire deeply, you know, David famously said he was like, you can't say every wise thing that you want to in any given moment. In neither should you try.
And I think a lot of times parents, you know, we want to say everything. You know, we want to get a whole theology of something. And, you know, in that moment, my response to my kids, again, like you said, Caleb, I could have said a hundred different things, but I tried to use humor, tried to deflect the situation, and then positively affirm, it's good to be a girl. And I'm so glad that God made you a girl.
So.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: And part of what I'm hearing in what you just said, obviously our goal is wise love or wise responses.
Part of it is almost empowering a parent to know their child.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: That's a huge part. Like, you know, this child.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: You know, a moment of humor might really connect or, you know, and so we're almost giving parents a bigger platform, a discipleship platform for their kids.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: And saying, you, how do we walk her in wisdom with our children?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. But friends, you guys know this, too, because again, you sit in the counseling room. Aren't you surprised, though, how often parents don't know their kids?
And I don't say that in a condemning way, but more by way of observation in that we want our youth pastors to fix our kids. We want our school counselors to fix our kids.
We want to parcel out that discipleship mandate that we've received in Deuteronomy 6 to someone else. But oftentimes I'm surprised by how parents don't really know their kids. They don't know their struggles, they don't know their heartaches, their burdens, their particular weaknesses, the particular ways that maybe they face temptation, the friends that they have, the things that they're doing.
And so again, one of the good, you know, pieces of news that comes out of that is knowing our kids then is such a. Such A gift. And we can all grow in that. Even me. I mean, I can grow in that of, you know, as my kids get older, realizing I need to grow with them and grow out of maybe preconceived stereotypes or caricatures of them and really, truly get to know them. And that's a good thing for all of us to aim to do in parenting.
[00:15:41] Speaker C: I appreciate what you just said earlier about our tendency knowing ourselves and our tendency to either overreact or underreact. I think I tend towards the overreaction end of that.
But I think for a lot of parents, that underreaction maybe can come from a fear of feeling like they don't have the right things to do, don't know the answers. And so I love what you just said about, you know, all of these moments.
It's not like we have to give a theological treatise in that moment, but it really can be an opportunity even just to know our kids better and to speak into what they're experiencing and to be curious about what they're experiencing.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: And so not to let our nearest of not having all the answers keep us from reacting at all.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: So I appreciated that as well.
Going back to the question that we asked about principles, I wanted to give you a chance to add if you had anything else.
I think that first point was great.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: So, yeah, I would say, especially when questions about gender and gender identity, when you begin going down a pathway where you're sensing that, you know, maybe where you're at and where your child is, that those are two different places. One of my biggest pieces is, is connect before you correct. Connect before you correct. And, you know, a lot of times when parents hear something that feels or sounds a little bit off, it's very easy. For understandable reasons, we want to immediately correct that. Right. Well, that's not what the Bible says. Or the Bible says this, and that's good. Scripture is given to us for reproof, for correction, but it's also given for training in righteousness.
And that idea of Scripture definitely has a corrective aspect to it, but it also can be used to inform and instruct, inform.
So, you know, maybe a different way that we come at it. You know, a kid says something to the effect of, you know, well, you know, I don't hold to that belief, or, you know, I believe I can be whatever I want to be. You know, it might just be a thoughtful question of, well, why? Like, why do you think that? You know, who told you that? And what do you think might be some of the consequences, good or bad, of that kind of thinking. And again, what you're trying to do is you're trying to draw them out, right? You're trying to help understand what's going on below the surface, what's going on in their heart.
And the proverbs, I think, tell us rightly that a man of understanding or a woman of understanding can draw out the intentions of the heart through wise question asking.
Sometimes kids don't want to ask questions, and that's fine, too.
So whenever your kid doesn't want to answer a question or they say, I don't know, I use my best Julie Lowe trick that she gave to me. And Julie always says when her kids say, I don't know, she just says, well, if you did know, what do you think you would say?
You know, I would say, success, fail rate. It's like 50, 50 for me. But I'll use. I've used it on my kids enough already, you know, to where they've seen through my, my, my tricks. But, you know, I'll just say, well, well, think out loud with me, Hypothetically speaking, if you did have an answer, you know, what would that be? And, you know, I've got teenagers now, so anytime I can get more than a couple of words out of them, that's a win.
So asking them to imagine and hypothetically think out loud with me oftentimes can be a good pathway to conversation with them.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: You need a. You need a word bank of ways to ask the question differently. Don't sniff out what you're doing.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah, the other day. The other day, friends, I was with one of my kids, and, you know, she's a little bit harder to get into the weeds with of issues of the heart. And one of the things I know is that if we're doing something together, that can oftentimes mitigate the awkwardness. So I took her to the mall and took her shopping, which, you know, what girl doesn't like that, took her to the store and I started asking her questions. And she goes, wait.
She goes, is this a trick? She goes, are you just taking me shopping so you can ask questions? And I laughed. I said, well, kind of. I go, I am happy to take you shopping, but I do have some questions for you. And we kind of laughed it off. But again, a little bit of humor, a little bit of meeting her where she was fostered a good conversation and connection, and she was able to get some makeup out of the trip, and I was able to.
A little bit more.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to something you said earlier about having a conversation, asking questions. You've mentioned the heart a few times and.
But Keller, I'll quote him again from his preaching book. He says the mind justifies what the heart wants. Yeah. It's just a great line of, hey, what we're trying to do is we're trying to target our heart. We're trying to understand our children's desires. Yeah. And that's. They are like as Proverbs 25 says, they're like deep water.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: So it's scary under there sometimes. And we need to put on a scuba. Scuba gear down to the deep water.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: You really do.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: But it's worth, it's worth it to go down there and figure out ways to connect. Right? Yeah.
You also, in your books talk about and this kind of connects with the connect over overcorrect. But you say a problem fixing versus a question asking conversation. And so anything you would add to what you've already said about, about that.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I think as most parents are like you guys, I mean, we're busy. I mean, we're taking kids to soccer practices, we're trying to get dinner on the table, help kids with algebra. And you know, when these kinds of things come up, you know, we want to fix, we want to immediately solve the problem.
And one of my encouragements to parents is parenting is a long game, Right? Parenting is a long game. And it's a lot of seed planting. And the only way that seed planting works is if you believe what Paul says in Galatians of do not be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
And as parents, we are planting and we are sowing seeds till the cows come home from the time they're born to the time that, Lord willing, they leave the nest. And so that's why if in every conversation you're just trying to problem solve, I actually find that that tends to shut kids down because oftentimes our solution is not an exact match to the problem that's actually surfacing. And so what they need from us is investigation, curiosity, biblical truth, and wisdom of saying, well, why do you think that? Or who told you that? Or have you thought through the implications of that? Or well, let's take that thought for a walk.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: If you think that and actually follow it and do that, what's the end result?
And so it can be very easy. You know, I'll see a lot of parents problem solver fix like this.
I'm taking your phone away from You. You've lost screen time. Right. And it's like, okay, you know, we've seen the. The phone now was this archetype of all things bad and influential. And I get that. And that might be, you know, a consequence at some point in the home, but it bypasses the heart. It bypasses the heart work that parents are called to do to say, hey, what's. What's going on here?
The phone is just simply an external device that exposes what's going on below the surface.
But, you know, I'll have parents come in and, you know, you know, say, well, what can I do to get my kid to do X, Y or Z? And it typically leads to, well, if I restrict this or take away this, or tell them they can't do this. Now, again, for some situations, that might be a wise course of action.
All I'm saying is there's also other potential wise courses of action that parents could pursue, especially as it relates to a lot of these issues with gender and sexuality in particular.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: Thanks, Jonathan. That's so helpful. As you were talking, I was picturing conversations with my younger daughter, who is the one who, you know, it's sometimes a little harder to navigate with her. And so I can. I was picturing her face in those moments when I'm trying to problem solve, and I. I can see her shut down, like, visibly and just kind of like tune me out.
And so I appreciate just that wise word of, again, entering in and focusing on relationship.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:15] Speaker C: And what they are experiencing and how they're processing.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, a question I'll ask. I mean, I ask it of my wife. I ask it of all the girls. Hey, what. What can I do that would be most helpful for you right now?
You know, is it just listening? Is it offering advice like, my kids know what I do for a day job. And so, you know, at times they'll say, hey, give me advice, give me counsel. But sometimes they just want to talk. My oldest, a lot of times just wants to be heard, and she just wants to talk. And externally process.
And friends, here's the benefit when we ask that question of how can I be most helpful?
We are imaging a God who is described to us in the Bible as a God who is a helper. And so it's such a wonderful and holy thing. You know, in Genesis in particular, the wife is called a helper. But the other 16 times that helper is used in Genesis, it always refers to God. The Lord is our helper. He's our maker. So when as parents we come alongside our kids and we say, hey, what can I do that would be helpful? In what ways could I be helpful? That is one of the direct ways. We incarnate a loving God who draws near to us, who says, talk to me. Tell me what's on your heart.
And again, those connections, over time, those are seeds planted. And over time, we hope that those seeds flourish and ultimately point our kids to the Lord.
Yeah, this is good.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: So much of what the ethos of what you're saying is, is we're. We're stewarding our kids. But it's so tempting to want to.
There's a fear, I think I've got to control my kids. I've got to make my kids, instead of saying, no, this is God's child was given to me. How can I steward this child? And I think that posture is. What I'm hearing you say is key under a lot of what you're saying.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Paul Tripp, you know, in his parenting book, describes that exact dynamic. Caleb. He talks about ownership parenting versus ambassador parenting. And he said, a lot of parents slip into ownership, like, we own our kids. The problem with that in talking about identity, the identity book really, ultimately is for parents because parents get a lot of their identity from their kids. How well their kids do, how smart their kids are, how athletic their kids are, or even how conformed to religious, moral, ethical principles are my kids.
And that really comes out when you have an ownership model. Because if I own my kids and they're a direct reflection of me, well, then the stakes significantly are higher in terms of their behavior than reflects me. But if you focus on ambassador parenting. Right. These kids are not mine. They are a gift that God has stewarded to me. Then the clarification of responsibility then is, listen, what I'm called to do is not to control my kids, but to communicate to my kids who the Lord is, what he has called them to do, and what tools and resources has he given to us through his word to live the life that he's called us to. And that's a significant difference for parents, for sure.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: I want to hone in real quick on why, with this issue in particular, or gender identity, why it might be trickier or just the temptation is stronger to control, hop in, to fix. You know, I mean, I think we feel it. Right. It's almost like the whack a mole, like, no, you're not going to. You know, maybe. Why is it that way? Or how would you speak to that?
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I'll give you an Example I was talking to, talking to a couple of parents whose, whose older son was considering transitioning and late teens, kind of announced it in a public way online. His parents discovered it. You know, quite a volatile dinner ensues and the dad slams his fist down on the table and tells his son, get out of here, get out of here. You can't live in this house.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Right?
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Obviously causes a lot of damage in the relationship. And you know, when he came, when they came in for counseling, he immediately wanted to talk about his son, right? And his son who's wanting to transition, etc. Etc. But I just said, well, talk to me about your reaction, your response, like what was going on? And I think unpacking that first for the parent, Caleb, as you reference, is so important. Like, where is that desire for finality and certitude and conformity coming from? Is it coming from a pressure to conform to an image that you've curated?
I find a lot of parents, it's just, it's simple awkwardness and discomfort.
These are areas of conversation that we don't know how to navigate. Or I hear a lot of parents say, we just didn't deal with this in our day, you know, so when we don't deal with these things in our day, we lose a fluency for it. And when we don't feel a fluency for certain problems, instead of becoming bilingual, we just want to stick with our original language and, you know, we're speaking English and the other person speaking another language, we're missing each other and yet, you know, we're not willing to move towards one another. So when you are confronted with that internal feeling of just wanting to be very rigid or demand certitude, you know, my encouragement to parents would just be just pause and ask yourself, why? What does certainty get you? What does that rigidity gain for you? And if at the other end of that it's not your child's flourishing before the Lord, you need to examine it. If it's, well, I just want to be in control or I don't want to upset my mother in law or my father in law, or this is just really hard, you need to do a little bit of exploration. And friends, that's where I think the local church is so great. God's placed us in a community with other fellow strugglers and parents, and we talk about these things with our friends, our community group colleagues, the people that we're in Bible study with, people we go to playgroup with, et cetera. We share these burdens and we Say, hey, will you pray for me?
That's the beauty of being able to work out these things in a church.
Yes.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: And I feel like so much of what you said is so helpful. And what I was kind of processing is, and maybe sometimes parents feel, they feel this.
God expects me to fix my child.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Like God expects me to say the right word and if I use the right scripture and if I say the right thing versus what you said, hey, we're a helper, we're a steward, we're coming alongside. How do we come alongside? Certainly, as we said, there is appropriate times to speak scripture directly, right? Depends on the occasion.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: It does.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: But taking that expectation off of fixer, like I have to conform them to something.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Right. And friends, this is where our reformed theology is. This where the rubber hits the road. If we really believe in God's sovereignty, and if we really believe in God's sovereign care over our children, then resting in God's sovereignty is not plan Z, it's plan A. Like that is our default is we entrust our kids to the Lord. And that's not a cop out. That's not a get out of jail free card. It's the truth. Again, it is the truth. It is we serve a God that we can entrust the lives of our children to. His word is good, his plan for our kids is good, and he is good. And so that's where our hope and our trust lies. And so often, like when I see parents in counseling, I would say at the end of the day, every single one of the parents typically wants to say, what do I do? Just give me a plan, like chart out a 10 step plan for me to fix my kids. And you know, oftentimes I'm very disappointing to parents in first sessions because I just say, well, I don't know, let's talk about. There's, there's not some plan in the Bible that if you do this, then this happens.
We don't get a full parenting plan anywhere in the Bible of, you know, hey, if your kid does this, then do this, and if he does this, do this.
You know, I always say, you know, if you want to know how to build an ark or a tabernacle, you're golden. There's whole chapters in the Bible tell you how to do that. But if you want to know how to parent a Kid, it's Deuteronomy 6. Teach and talk to your children about the Lord. Well, how does that look, Moses?
I don't know. Teach and talk to your children. Right? Work it out you're sensible people. What does this look like for you and your home?
And that's where biblical wisdom and walking in the spirit, being a part of a local church where you're growing and being discipled yourself become such critical elements in your own parenting journey.
[00:33:06] Speaker C: So good. And for people who are listening, I'm not sure what, based on the title, what you thought we were going to be talking about today. Maybe you thought you would be getting like a ten step, have this conversation, but if you are like me, listening to Jonathan share his insights here, I am hoping for our listeners that you are feeling just a really deep sense of conviction yourself about how we even are thinking about this whole parenting thing. And so I really appreciate, you know, where you're leading us, where you are taking us here. It is really at one level about how we are walking with the Lord.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:45] Speaker C: And how we are then engaging our children and encouraging them to walk with the Lord as well. And so we're going to move towards wrapping up here. I do wonder, Jonathan, for anyone out there who maybe, maybe a parent whose child is struggling in this way or someone else who's listening, who they themselves are struggling either in the area of gender identity or in sexuality, which we didn't spend too much time on, but I feel like the principles are there for us to have those conversations. How might you encourage them? Is there a word of truth or hope or encouragement that you could give them as they think about what's. What's my next step?
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, for a parent, you know, whose son or daughter is struggling with either a sexual orientation or a gender identity that runs counter to Scripture's good plan for gender and sexuality, you know, it would be simply a repeat of many of the things we've already shared. Parenting is a long game.
What we're looking for in parenting is faithfulness and we entrust the fruitfulness to the Lord.
So it's, I wake up every day, I pray, I say, lord, help me, Lord, help me. My son or my daughter is making this choice. They're hanging out with these people. Lord, I need help to know how to navigate this. Lord, I need help for being able to have words for this conversation. There's nothing that drives parents to prayer more so than having kids, I think. Right. I mean, you just realize at the end of the day, lord, help me becomes the melody line of your day. And I know that that's where I find myself most days is, Lord, I have no clue what to do, but you do. And I'm resting in you. So Lord, give me the words. Give me the words not to say so that would be the encouragement. Friends is if your friend, if your son or your daughter is struggling in that area.
Learn to pray and learn to reach out to the Lord. Be faithful in prayer for your kids. It is a long game. It is a long game for the individual who's struggling. What I would say is trust in the Lord's good plan. Trust in the Lord's good plan. The world is going to offer you a lot of happiness, the allure of authenticity and living your own truth and being true to yourself. What I would want to say is it sounds good, it really does.
But at the end of the day there are quite a few empty promises. On the other side of that meaning, if you are responsible for your own sense of worth, happiness, authenticity and purposefulness as a 6 year old, a 16 year old or even a 26 year old, friends, that is a lot of pressure to live with. And what I would want to tell that struggler is what if I had told you that there was someone who invested and created you with infinite worth and infinite purpose and you don't do anything to receive it. It's given to you as a gift. Wouldn't you want that? Wouldn't that be so much more appealing? And so if you are listening and that's something that you struggle with, just know that on the other side of your struggles, your questions, your discomfort, your dysphoria, whatever it might be, on the other side of that is a God who loves you, who created you and whose plan for you is good and right.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Amen, brother. Ministering to my heart personally as you say that the good news of the gospel is refreshing and being an image bearer and hearing from him, that news is, it is truly what we need.
Thank you for joining us today, brother.
I want to encourage listeners to pick up a copy of Grounded in Grace. You're going to be very helped by it. Again, it's a short read, very, very helpful, insightful with these principles.
Also want to encourage you if you are struggling or a parent or a friend of someone who's struggling, there are counseling resources available when I encourage you. Fieldstone counseling.org Jonathan as we mentioned, he leads that organization. They have remote counseling so they're available to anywhere you are. You can hop on a call with one of them. And also certainly if you're at around Perimeter North Atlanta, we've got perimeter counseling.org as well and we'll be glad to help you. So Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.
[00:38:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
