[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. Welcome to another episode of the Perimeter Counseling Podcast. This is Caleb Martin. I direct our counseling center here at Perimeter. I'm with our co host Kathy Chang, so you'll hear her voice very soon. And we have two special guests to start off a new three episode series about honoring God in every season. And we're going to talk a little bit about that with our two guests, if you don't mind. Jamie, you go first. Introduce yourself a little bit and what you do here. [00:00:54] Speaker C: Sure. My name is Jamie Boss. I am the director of women's ministry here at Perimeter and I've been on staff 15 years. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:01:03] Speaker D: I'm Jackie Lucas. I've been on staff 30, almost 38 years. I'm executive assistant to our founding pastor, Randy Pope, and our current senior pastor, Jeff Norris. [00:01:14] Speaker B: And you have a special ability to read really complex handwriting. [00:01:18] Speaker D: God gave me the gift of interpretation when I went to work for Randy so I could read his handwriting. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Okay, that's great. So I know who to go with if I ever have issues reading my own handwriting. [00:01:29] Speaker D: Yes, he. He's asked me before. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Okay, that's great. [00:01:31] Speaker D: To read his. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Well, that's not exactly why you're here, but we're talking about singleness and so could you just share a little bit, each of you, of your journey to this point? We know that's the reason why we asked you guys. So you have a story and a journey to this point. Either of you started? [00:01:54] Speaker D: Miguel again? Jackie, I'm 67, never been married, so there are a lot of seasons in my life that's been fine. There are a lot of seasons in my life where that was not fine that I would like to be married with a family. So I've read things through the years, but never, never really explored singleness as a life. Things I've heard through the church and outside the church kind of went in. But a couple years ago I heard a podcast and toward the end of the podcast, the question was asked, what is the church doing to help lifetime singles flourish? And I kind of paused and I said nothing. So how can we. So that kind of started me on a journey to say, how can we as a church, the big C church, how can we help lifetime singles flourish in God's kingdom? There's gotta be a purpose for my singleness. There's got to be a reason that God has called me to this life. Surely it must be good because God has given that to me. So that's kind of where I started my journey of the last probably two and a half years. Reading, listening to podcasts, reading articles, following blogs to really dig into that topic. [00:03:19] Speaker B: Wow. Well, there's a lot of questions I want to ask you. I'm going to pause and let Jamie share real quick a little bit of why she's here. [00:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I lived the majority of my life as a single. I had a desire to get married and my father died when I was 24. I was reflecting back on my single journey. I'm one of three daughters. And so I think I felt the gap of not having a male presence in my life and went to be a missionary in South Africa, came back because my mom was aging around 40 is when I came back, still a single, came on staff here. So I was on staff here for four years as a single and then met my husband at about 44 and we got married and we had two children. But the majority of my life was a single. And that's why I'm here today. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Well, I love that. I'm going to jump in and just say that I'm so thankful that you're both here and that you both have these amazing and unique stories of how God's been leading you as singles. And then Jamie, now as a married person, I love that you are both have both thought about this so much and have been really intentional about thinking through singleness. So I was wondering, are there any specific Bible passages or even principles that you think would be helpful for singles to know and to take to heart things that have been helpful to you or things that you've been reflecting on? [00:04:42] Speaker C: I think that one of the first. [00:04:44] Speaker D: Podcasts I listened to, they talked about how marriage is a picture of the marriage of Christ and the church, but that singleness represents the gospel as showing us the sufficiency of Christ in our lives. So where you I've for years have heard the marriage piece. I had never heard the singleness has that picture for eternity. Also, also that we've been taught that and I'm going to say taught, not always verbally. Sometimes it's just by what we observe and hear taught and what we don't hear taught that marriage is the ideal. Marriage is what everybody strives for. Marriage is where everybody should go. And so when you're not in that season, you feel Like God has maybe not given you the best gift. So also. And so how do you deal with that? Has been a lot of what I've dealt with. And so realizing that marriage is a gift, I still believe that. But I also believe singleness is a gift that God gives some. It's not a special gift where I never desire marriage or I never want the marriage and family. But it's the season of life God has given me. And therefore it is a good gift from God. And so how can I use that? What am I supposed to do in that? And then also he doesn't see this as a chronic condition. It's not like an illness that I have. Again, he's given it. He is sovereign. We talked about a little while ago. So he's determined that this is the gift that lets me flourish the most in life is to be single. So those are the couple things that I've kind of been digging into. And how does that work? [00:06:41] Speaker B: I've got a follow up question in that you mentioned something pretty powerful. It's not a chronic condition that I need to get rid of. [00:06:50] Speaker D: Right. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Just say more about that. Maybe how that, how you felt about it. Maybe others. Singles who are listening who might feel the same way. [00:06:59] Speaker C: I think it was that whole. [00:07:02] Speaker D: Sometimes it felt like that to me. Like this is a chronic condition that I have. But I haven't somehow thwarted his plan for me by not being married. He hasn't withheld the greater blessing of marriage. It's. Marriage isn't a greater blessing. It is a blessing, but so is my singleness. And so I think grappling with that and realizing that singleness again in his sovereignty. He has determined that this is what's best for me. To be able to honor him and glorify him and know him better. I have friends that you know will say, well, nothing sanctifies you more than having kids. And it's like, well, I'm going to disagree with you there. God has called us all to a journey and he's going to sanctify each of us in with different things. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:55] Speaker D: And so I'm going to be just. I'm on the journey just as much as anyone else. Even though I am a single. [00:08:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And when you hear blanket statements like that, sometimes it's, it's not helpful because everybody's story is so unique. Yeah. [00:08:09] Speaker A: For. [00:08:09] Speaker B: For every season of life. And so when you hear that, it's not always the most helpful thing. But I love how you're able to repackage it for yourself and Maybe for others you might hear in process. Yeah, that's good. [00:08:21] Speaker D: It's been a process. [00:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Jackie, thank you. [00:08:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:08:25] Speaker C: There's probably another whole podcast of the things we've heard that are myths that people tell you. Oh, really? Become a queen and you'll meet your king here. If that's the desire of your heart, God will meet. And it's like, I don't see that in scripture that I ever read. You know, if something says that of your heart, God will give you that thing. But, yeah, I can totally relate. And I think about when you talked about the passage that. And I'm going to try to make it. I made a talk out of it because it was so meaningful to me. Like, when I think about what truth, what scripture really has helped me center me in my singleness, it's kind of going, I was discontent in my role. It was about 30 years ago. I was in my role and my job in my singleness. I was comparing a lot to other people. And so I started a study on contentment. And I was looking throughout Scripture, and the opposite of contentment is coveting. And it led me to the garden and the whole when Genesis, when God is blessing them and said to them, you know, he made all kinds of trees grow. The ground trees were pleasing to the eye and good for food, and he created it and said to them, you are free to eat from all the trees. But he did withhold this one tree. And so really studying that and thinking about, if I think about nature and I think about the hundreds of thousands of different trees that he made that are beautiful, they're beautiful. They're not just functional. There's lots of different varieties and flavors. I think about a candy store, if I had thousands of different pieces of candy. But the store owner said, this one, Rolo, if you eat it, you will die. But I like what Satan did in questioning is like, did God really say, you know, you might not eat of any tree in the garden? And he misled the words and said, you're surely not going to die. And told her, you know, God really knows that when you eat of it, you're going to be like God. And that hint of it was, God really is withholding this one thing you really need to make you happy. And I kind of bought into that lie that to being married, God is withholding the thing that's going to make me happy. And Eve, basically, when she took and it said it was the exact same wording. Um, when it said her, she focused on it. When the Woman saw Genesis 3. 6, that the fruit of the tree was good for food, same term as before. And pleasing to the eye. Exactly. Same wording. And also desirable. Desirable for gaining wisdom. She took some and ate it, gave to her husband. And so two of the three are exactly the same. What was observable about it? But Satan had shifted her focus from all the trees that he had given and said, this one is what's going to make you happy. And I think I did that. I really looked at God, you haven't given me this. And I was just comparing. And so I started at that season I want what I have list. So the past 30 years, if I feel a discontentment creep, I just focus on what I've been given. You know, I want to be single. I want to be this age. I was in South Africa at the time. A lot of the girls we ministered to, none of them had a car. Sometimes girls would tell me, it's been three days, you know, that I haven't eaten. And so even my list was simple things like, I want to have a. I want to have a home. I want to have a job that provides my needs. Like the things I take for granted to really focus on. I want to be a job in ministry. I get to tell people about Jesus. And I would find my heart transforming when I'm focusing and believing that God is good. Not believing Satan's lie, he's withholding something, but believing all these trees he's given. You know, Psalm 16 is another passage. The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. And trusting the sovereign God of the universe made my plan and my path. And trusting him today that this was for my good. Now that has been transformative to me. And so I still, as a married mom, I have to pull out my I want what I have list. And there's different stuff on it. But, you know, my struggle is not always going to be if I'm not content in this season, I'm not going to contend in any season because there's always any challenge. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Well, I'd love to link that. Maybe we could link that talk or reference some notes to it. Sounds awesome. You mentioned in South Africa, I would imagine you were a missionary for how long? [00:12:39] Speaker C: I was seven years over there. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Okay. So I would imagine maybe I don't put thoughts into your previous self, but like you were thinking, if, you know, I'm on the mission field, I'm kind of by myself here. You weren't exactly putting yourself in. In a place to like, marry. Pool was very Gazing pool was, yeah, yeah. [00:13:00] Speaker C: South Africa did not have many believers. And if they were, I was at the college ministry. If it did come to Christ, they were much, much younger, but two years younger than me. So, yeah, it was. I am choosing to put myself in a place that this is God. You would be the only one that could do it. And I still had the desires. And I'll talk about, like, I would find over seasons, I would either have seasons where I'd harden my heart. I did not want this. I. I am, I am, I am woman, hear me roar. I am. You know, it hard my heart and just say, like, I don't need to be married. And then I have seasons where I would be like, God, I'd long for this. I desire it. I pour my heart out to him. I would sign up for eharmony. I would like, what can I do to get it? And then I would have to find that place of surrender where I would go, okay, God, I desire this. I don't want to kill my heart and my desires. I also don't want them to feed lies and to like, lay. Be okay with the hurt and to say, this is what I desire, God, but I surrender it to you and then meet him in that place. And so I think God gave me opportunities over and over to say, to trust him, to trust him. And I think about the things I got to pick up and do. I got to pick up. If I had been married with kids, I wouldn't have been able to pick up and go back to seminary when gotten to travel the world. Like, I look back and go the things, I might not appreciated them then, if that makes sense. But looking back, I'm like, there's so many things I got to do that I wouldn't have been able to do later on. Absolutely. I really. [00:14:27] Speaker A: I love what you just said about just coming to the Lord and being honest with your desires. And I think, you know, as singles, the tendency can be to either give in wholeheartedly to that desire and let that become where we set our eyes, or to pretend that that desire doesn't exist or to feel like we have to shove it aside because, you know, as a good Christian, maybe we're not supposed to want those things or we have to, you know, But I love the. The idea of coming to the Lord in honesty. And it's the. The place, the. The gift that he gives us to express our desires and to be honest with him and to know that he cares about our desires. That doesn't mean that. That he's gonna give us our, you know, long list of things, but he cares about our desires and he meets us there. So I love that. Just as a principle for singles, that we can go to the Lord. [00:15:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:24] Speaker D: And I don't think I ever hardened my heart. I mean, like you were talking about, I think there were seasons where the desire was greater than other seasons. And so. But in all of the seasons, it's just laying it out there. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Y' all both mentioned this, or maybe you didn't when we were talking about the podcast, about that. If I. People will say, if you have a desire for it, that must be your. You're going to get married. And that's not biblical. Would you just expound on where. Where do you think that comes from? What are people trying to say? And then how did you. What's the right way to think about it? [00:16:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:08] Speaker D: So many thoughts. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:11] Speaker D: I don't know that. I don't know that I ever interpreted or heard it that particular way. Mine was always more in the First Corinthians 7, where Paul is talking about the gift. You know, each one has their own gift, and it's. One has marriage, one has singleness. That was somehow interpreted through the years that if you have the gift of singleness, that means you don't desire, like, you have this supernatural ability to be single versus. Yeah. Versus being given marriage. So that if you desire marriage, that means you must not have the gift of singleness. So flipping that to say, that's not at all what he was saying. He was saying there's these two gifts that both lead to me, both lead to abundant life, marriage and singleness. And so if you view them as gifts, not like the gifts of the spirit, but, you know, these are. These are stations in life that God gives us, and they are both good and they're both useful, and they're both. Yeah. So I don't know. Does that make sense? [00:17:27] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And a little bit to what you shared about the uniqueness of the opportunity for you to do some things. [00:17:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:34] Speaker B: In both of your roles. Absolutely. [00:17:36] Speaker C: And I think some of it, for me, when I would hear that if God gave you the desire, it's like I look back in the garden and people would say, you know, God made us to be fruitful and multiply. He made us for relationship. I think it comes back to some of that, and it's like, okay, God, you did make me for that. And I think I remember one Mother's Day, I had spiritual children. I remember one of the gals I had that desire to be fruitful and multiply, but I didn't have to wait to get married to do it. And so I remember she, one of the gals I led to Christmas diapering, gave me a Mother's Day card. And it still makes me tear up to think she saw me. She saw that. That's a desire of my heart. In that season. I think I was 40 at the time. I was like, well, I get that on the side of heaven, I make the hut. But I can live in community with people. I can love people. I can be in people's lives. I can have spiritual children. I can hang out, which I love watching Jackie hang out with Laura's kids, you know, like, I can have that in the lives of others. And it doesn't have to be biological, but I think there is something in us that God managed for that. And it's like, yes, but there's different ways to fulfill that calling. Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker D: I think there's a verse in Isaiah that talks about the barren woman having more children than the people who are. Who are giving birth to children. And the. The for what? That shows us towards spiritual multiplication and having spiritual children that as a single. I don't. I will tell people I don't have any children of my own, but I have a lot of children. I do have a lot of children, literal children in my life, but also the spiritual multiplication, having spiritual children and realizing that I do have a part in the kingdom, even though I'm not birthing. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:19:22] Speaker D: Physical children. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yes. Wow. That's powerful, y'. All. That's really powerful. What do you hope married people would keep in mind? They're kind of in line with that thread of giving good advice, bad advice. Thoughts. [00:19:40] Speaker D: Okay. [00:19:41] Speaker B: As they interact with singles in the evening. Yeah. [00:19:43] Speaker D: Okay. First I said, have single friends. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:46] Speaker D: Like, don't get married and forget all your single friends. We need. Married people need singles. Single people need married one. The more I'm involved personally in couples lives with their children, sometimes without their children, sometimes with their children, the more content I am. Because I see firsthand, if they're real around me, that marriage isn't the panacea that makes everything great. I see that. I stress. [00:20:17] Speaker C: Did I say. [00:20:20] Speaker D: But if I can see them struggling and I can see some of my best friends, I love when I walk in their kitchen and they're having an argument and they just keep going, you know that it's like, I'm part of the family, and so they're free to do that. In front of me. But I do think that and understand that we're called as brothers and sisters in Christ. We're going to be brothers and sisters in Christ forever, in eternity. That is our relationship. So let's do it now. Let's be a family now. Don't assume what I want my relationship status to be at any particular point. And don't ask those questions like, why aren't you married? [00:21:07] Speaker B: What? [00:21:07] Speaker D: Why? [00:21:07] Speaker C: Worst possible question. [00:21:08] Speaker D: Yeah, like, why aren't you married? It's like, well, I guess because God didn't ordain that for me. I don't know what to answer when people ask that. Have real conversations with your single friends. Find out where they are practical. This is just real practical. If you see somebody sitting by themselves in church, just go say, can we sit with you? Bring your family. Sit with us. They may be single, they may not be single. It may just be somebody at church by themself that day. But, you know, invite them in. Invite. Or say, come sit with us or. I think that's a real practical, not hard thing to do. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I love the friends you mentioned who will continue to have their marriage conflicts with you in the room. [00:21:55] Speaker D: Ask me. [00:21:57] Speaker B: They asked you for advice. [00:21:58] Speaker C: Or do you think this is right? [00:22:00] Speaker D: Or this is right. It's like, I'm not going there. I'm not going there. Y' all figure it out. [00:22:07] Speaker B: It's great. So come on over. Jackie? [00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:14] Speaker B: You have any thoughts on that? [00:22:15] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it's funny, when I was praying about it and putting myself, you know, Perimeter. I came to Perimeter not because of the singles ministry. I came to Perimeter because of the love of God's Word and God's people. But I was on staff for a year, and I think Sunday Morning sometimes was the loneliest place because I'm sitting by myself and I remember feeling like the gaps by me were like a herald sign. You know, she is by herself. And obviously I'll build community over time, but you're not driving in with people on Sunday morning and sitting, so. Amen then. [00:22:49] Speaker D: Don't leave a seat between us. Come sit next to me. [00:22:53] Speaker C: Or maybe four. I say, maybe we always want to leave a seat, but it's nothing. I think you also mentioned this, I think discipleship groups. I was a single and I led mixed groups, so we had Mary's and singles. I think this is good for my heart as a single to hear the grass is not greener on the other side. We all have problems, we all have struggles, and it just looks different if you're married? Single. So I have a single mom in my group now. And I think there's a beauty of it. It's making sure I'm not just talking about parenting in our group, and I'm not just talking about marriage in my group. I'm talking about Jesus and the things that we all need. Our identity is the same, our longings are the same. Our struggles might play out in different ways. Um, but I will say I appreciate, you know, I don't think I have time for the story, but I appreciate when my brothers in Christ, brothers and sister in Christ see me. I'm going to have hard days, and I'm going to have days. It's not a big deal. And so I have different stories where I have to choose to let the body of Christ love me. So I have to choose to be vulnerable. So, you know, I have to make a choice to say, today is a hard day, but I love. I had a married friend who pursued me, saw my moment of need and asked questions. And. Well, I'll just say briefly, it was Valentine's Day. I was having a hard moment. I was having a hard day. My best friend had just gotten engaged. I was wearing a red coat. And someone said something about it. And I think my reaction was so strong that someone followed me to the next room we were in. It was Monty Starks. And he's like, can I ask you, you know, how are you doing? And I had to choose to be vulnerable and say, this is a really hard day. And he actually saw me and engaged me and invited me to a date with him and his wife that day. We went to Hibachi, and then they invited me over their house and movie night with their family. And every kind of Valentine's Day ahead of time, he would initiate to me. Now I had to choose. It was vulnerable for me to say, yes, I'm having a hard day, and, yes, I will go with your family. But it meant a lot to say that's an opportunity. And there are some Valentine's Day one big deal. I didn't care. But having those moments to have an engaging, with open, honest conversation and seeing your friends and. [00:24:57] Speaker D: Yeah, I think sometimes people assume that if you're single, you don't have any problems. You know, you don't have to deal with a husband and children and all the scheduling and all that, but I have to deal with everything by myself. So I have to take care of my house and do my laundry and find time to do the grocery shopping and make every decision by Myself, Um, and that's just hard. So realize that you're singles. I read my mom recently passed away, and she. I remember reading an article right after that when somebody talked about singles being unencumbered. And not only did I. I mean, my mom had dementia, so I was caring for her for years. And it's like, this is not unencumbered. I've got a lot. So don't. Don't just assume we've got this. I did. I do have a lot of perks. You know, I can travel because I am single. And. And I can do other things because I am single. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker D: But there's a lot of things that I don't have because I am single. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like a unique. There's a unique burden on each person and unique call for each person in their individual story. And we do. We are talking about this subject, but it's so much more than marriage and singleness. And we love to define in our culture as that when Jesus defines us as his child, primarily first. And so just so powerful to sit in that and let that be the driving. [00:26:34] Speaker D: And I think we're not a competition. Marriage and singleness isn't a competition. It's not a either. You know, it's like, we're together. We need each other. Yeah. [00:26:44] Speaker A: I love so much what you were saying just about singleness being good and marriage being good. And, you know, I think that so many times that singleness is not painted that way. But what I love about that is to recognize we don't know what's going to happen. Right. For each. For each of our lives, we don't know the end of the story. But whatever place we find ourselves, we can trust that it is good because our God is good. And so, you know, for any singles who might be listening, where there are probably days where it doesn't feel good, that might be true for married people, too, where it doesn't feel good. But what do we do in those moments where the station that we're in doesn't feel good? We trust that our God is good and that he has good for. [00:27:34] Speaker D: I think a lot of my prayer in that. In all of my seasons, but especially in seasons where I'm less content and feeling more, the desire is to say, God, I can't imagine myself single in five years, but I can be single today. [00:27:50] Speaker C: Oh, I love that. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Wow. So, absolutely. [00:27:54] Speaker D: So I live for today and not worry about where I'm going to be in five years. I would say that every five years. Every year. But yeah. [00:28:01] Speaker B: So that's such a good picture of just application of what Jesus says, isn't it? It's like, tomorrow there'll be grace for you, tomorrow there'll be worries there. But focus on today and his sufficiency for you today and do this today. Absolutely. Well, as we wrap up, is there. It's hard to boil this down and we can link some resources here, but is there one that kind of bubbles to the top for each of you? A book or podcast? Obviously this podcast. Anything you would recommend for somebody that's single who wants to think through these things biblically? [00:28:37] Speaker D: Oh, yes. Number one resource, brand new book out called Single Ever after by Danielle Trewick. T R E W E E K She's out of Australia. She's fabulous. She actually has an actual PhD in singleness. She wrote. Her dissertation is actually out as a. Her first book was called the Meaning of Singleness and it's dense. Yeah, it's really good, but really hard. It's a hard read. This one is quick and good and just. It's for marrieds and singles. There's application for both in here, but highly, highly recommended. Really talking about the significance and meaning and how you can find fulfillment in your singleness. [00:29:28] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's awesome. Jamie, any thoughts? [00:29:31] Speaker C: I mean, I. I think Paige Benton Brown, it was probably article 20 years ago, singled out for Good. And it was just. I still remember it. It talked about a lot of the myths, but she. I think the biggest things was like, I'm not in plan B. This is not plan B for my life. This is plan A today. And I had a friend mention Sam Alberry's sevenness about singleness. And she's my peer and she's like, if I had written a book about it, this is what I've written. So I've heard great things. [00:29:56] Speaker D: That is a good one. Another, yeah. Danny has a ministry called Single Minded and she's got a lot of resources out there that are all great. It's Singleminded Community is her website and she's got a lot of great stuff out there. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Well, if she reads her own audible in her Australian accent, that's even better for us. So good accent. Well, thank you guys for joining us. I'm very just encouraged. My heart is full listening to how God's worked in both of your stories. I just feel like I know him more just hearing your stories and I'm sure. Thanks. You all will enjoy this as well. Thank you. Pleasure. [00:30:34] Speaker D: It was great. Thank you for having us. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:30:36] Speaker A: Thank you.