[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, another episode with my co host, Kathy Chang. I'm Caleb Martin and today we have a special guest, Chip Sweeney. He's here to talk about part of our issues and common issues in counseling. One of our episodes, common issues in counseling, anxiety and depression. So, Chip, you have been on staff for quite a while with Perimeter, but you also have a family and other things. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your role here. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Maybe how long you've been here, that type of thing. [00:00:58] Speaker A: Yeah. It's great to be with you guys today. Yeah. My wife Leanne and I have been married 35 years. I'm a blessed man. Awesome. She has endured much and she's just incredible wife. We have two children. Our daughter Caroline is 29 and she's married to Zach, Zach Wagner, who's actually on our staff as well. And they live in Duluth, which is sweet because we live in Duluth and so that's a blessing. Yes. And then our son Jack lives just outside of D.C. and he's single and works in finance and banking. Yeah. [00:01:38] Speaker B: And he is. He was a state champion soccer player. Yeah. [00:01:43] Speaker A: They both went Duluth High School. And yeah. He got to be part of the 2015 state champion Duluth High soccer team, which Duluth High does not win too many state championships. It was a pretty big deal. [00:01:59] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:02:01] Speaker B: So how about your time on. Yeah. Staff at Perimeter? [00:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I will celebrate 30 years next summer. I'll leave it. Yeah. Very blessed. And actually if you include. Even before that, I was an intern in student ministry in the early 90s here, went to seminary up in Chicago at Ted's Trinity Evangelical, because there were no evangelical options actually in Atlanta at the time. There was no rts, there was no mask online, wasn't a thing. But then at the end and continued doing student ministry and the internship. I did it while I was in seminary. And then as I was nearing the end of seminary and looking for full time youth pastor positions, Matt Brinkley, who had I interned with, called me and said, hey, we're adding some more positions to our team here. And so actually came on as the junior high pastor, the middle school pastor in 96. Wow. Yeah. So I've been in total student ministry was about 10 years, including that internship and my time at seminary. And then really the last 23 have been all externally focused around Atlanta. So we have. My four departments are Community Outreach, City Impact, Church Planting, and Campus Outreach. Part of my division. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Yep. So when I first came on staff, I worked under Chip's division working with campus Outreach. So way back. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:44] Speaker B: So thanks for taking a chance on me way back in the day. It's worked out very weekend. We're here. Yeah, I'm still here. Well, Chip, you've been ministering to so many in various ways at Perimeter and beyond Perimeter. Um, and one of the ways, even recently, how God has just designed your story, is that you have had a struggle that you've shared with others. And particularly we were thinking about a Christianity Today article you wrote for pastors about your struggle with anxiety and depression. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about that article? But even just broadly, what you would want believers to know about that struggle. [00:04:28] Speaker A: Just begin talking about it. Yeah, yeah. I was actually quite surprised that Christine. They was. Was interested, but I think that I felt a desire to share my story and I. So I think all believers struggle at some degree with depression, anxiety. Um, but I think, you know, for my story, in many, it is an issue where it becomes debilitating, where you actually have a point where you can't function. And it just seemed that there weren't too many believers or leaders that were sharing their story. And. And honestly, I really wasn't thinking this would be my story. It wasn't like I thought that I would one day be at a place where. Right. I would have depth of challenge in depression, anxiety. However, you know, God works in mysterious and powerful ways. And, you know, God has worked powerfully in me in this, and it's part of the sanctifying process that he has for me. So, yeah, I really wanted to share my story basically, and then give a few learnings. And so I'll share, you know, a couple things today. And so I think in terms of kind of speaking to those who are in the midst of, or, you know, have had times of pretty significant anxiety and depression, a couple things that I would say that I want everyone to know and then maybe a few things that I learned that was important to do. So in terms of knowing, first of all, you're not alone. You are not alone. This is a significant issue and a significant issue for believers. You know, this is actually statistic for pastors, but it states a point, is that in 2023, Barna did a study and found out that nearly one in five Protestant senior pastors, so almost 20% had contemplated self harm or suicide within the past year. [00:07:05] Speaker C: Oh my gosh. Wow, that's shocking. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that is shocking. And so certainly that's pastors, but I think all believers, it's not probably much different. And so, yeah, just know that you are not alone. There are many of us, and by the way, they're giants throughout church history who have struggled with this, even Mother Teresa. But anyway, we could go through Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon, I mean, Martin Luther King, I mean, there's so I think that's. And secondly along with that is there's no shame, there's no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus. And I'm concerned and I grieve, right, that there's still so much of a stigma around just the issue of mental health and mental illness and depression, anxiety. And I know when I first again, my story really begins all the way back to probably high school and so forth. But as a believer, when it began to get more challenging, I would struggle with really lies from the enemy of. If my faith was just stronger, if I was more in love with Jesus, if I was doing the right things, I wouldn't be struggling with this. And, and I just want to encourage those out there struggling that those are lies, they're not true. That we can love Jesus deeply and still struggle significantly with. Again, my story is depression, anxiety. There's a lot of other. Right. Challenges in this area, but for me, depression, anxiety. But yeah, and say you're not less of a Christian, you're not less of a leader, you're not less of a parent, you're not less of a spouse. You're very valued as a child of the King. And when the fall happened, everything was broken. And that also has to do with the way we're made up. And so we are broken from the fall and until Jesus comes back the second time and we're completely renewed. Right. We're going to have challenges. Yes. For those of us that are born again believers, the Holy Spirit's come in and we, we are change, we are new creations, but we still have to deal with, still have to deal with sin. So there can be. [00:10:18] Speaker B: We're body and soul, where theologians call it psychosomatic union, though sometimes those bodily things we don't quite understand why we have might have a propensity to something biological or physical, and it's mysterious at times and those affect our soul. And it works both ways. Right. And it does. I thought about this kind of term that I've heard others use. But we talk about a prosperity gospel in our culture. We're usually talking about materialistically, but oftentimes we actually functionally, as believers, live an emotional prosperity gospel. So if I believe enough faith, if I have enough faith, then I won't feel like this. I'll actually be free of this struggle. Yeah, you're actually. That's kind of what you were believing in some senses, right. [00:11:08] Speaker A: To put those knowledge. Yeah, initially. Initially, yes. [00:11:12] Speaker B: And if I had more faith, if I had. If I could just. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yes. The natural right for us as a believer is we know we're new creations. We know there's something different. We've been changed, we have been redeemed. But there is a sense of still that where our behavior, the way we operate should be completely different. And yet we still struggle in a number of ways. And I think I do want to say to some out there that do truly believe, and I know there are believers who would say, well, it's true, if your faith was stronger, you wouldn't struggle as much. And I just. Yeah, it's really hard. I think I would say that unintentionally that you're just. You're deeply hurting us who love Jesus and struggle in this area. That it's actually one of the reasons there's still that stigma out there. And the shame is because there is this thought that we shouldn't have to or we shouldn't be dealing with these at the degree we are if our faith was stronger and it plays into the enemy's hand. And so just for those of us who, you know, have been to the. The pit, so to speak, at least our own pit. Yeah, it's. It's hurtful. It's hard for us to. To hear that. And so I just encourage. I think sometimes until you've been through it, you don't have any idea what it's like. I didn't. I never would. Imagined, actually, that when I reached what I would say is the, you know, near the bottom of my own pit, that it would be like it was. And I don't think unless you've really been there, you can. [00:13:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think it's tremendous that, you know, when you say this, you didn't think that this would be your story. Not only is God using your story to help others in this way, but also I imagine it has immensely changed your perspective as you interact with others and do ministry with others and a level of compassion. [00:13:43] Speaker A: I'm sure that's different. Absolutely. I. Well, one Is, you know, so I've been a pastor a long time and I've ministered to people in a lot of different situations. But unless you've been in the shoes and you've experienced what they have, we don't quite understand. And it's similar here that when people, when people begin. Right. To experience what I would call, you know, a collapse, then you want to be around others who have. Just because, you know, that they understand, at least at some level, they've been there and they understand. And so I've had, you know, numbers of people come to me and be able to share their story because I'm safe, so to speak. I've been there. I can, I can relate and I can have compassion in a way that I, I really couldn't otherwise. So, yeah, it's, again, it's opened up so many ministry opportunities and it softened my heart. Well, to people that struggle in other areas, not just this, that, you know, that are extremely hard. And so again, the Lord takes, you know, he takes these experiences. He talks about this in Second Corinthians. Right. That he comforts us with a comfort that we can then comfort others. And that's. That's what he does. And so his body, Right. We all are different parts of the body, and we have gifts and talents and strengths, but we all have weaknesses and we have experiences and stories and that's how we connect with each other. And so, yeah, I think that's. [00:15:56] Speaker B: I love that. I was actually thinking about that passage. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:59] Speaker B: That you shared. You took the words out of my mouth. Just that. And that Paul would say that. And actually one of the things that I look for in a good caregiver, a counselor, a leader, how's God comforted you in your afflictions? Have you allowed him to comfort. Have you been comforted by the body of Christ? Because there's a level of humility, as you shared, Kathy, and as you articulate, you see people differently. There's not a just gut level. I'm going to fix this person when you interact with it because you know you can't. And that's not your role. No, God is redeeming. And so you walk, you begin to say less of. Let me just give you some, some trite truth here versus I'm going to walk with you and, and let's experience the truth together. A little difference. [00:16:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:51] Speaker B: You mentioned a guy named Matt earlier. How Matt, how did he step in? Yeah, we, we might get to a little bit of these. How he step in for you? [00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So if I can. Let me go back to just something, you know, you talked about, sort of the psychosomatic. Right, sure. You need. Yeah, yeah. That it's all connected. So I think what I want to share is that for me, it's been both a physical issue and a spiritual. [00:17:17] Speaker C: Issue that's so important. [00:17:20] Speaker A: So for me, I have found that medicase prescribes, medications have made a difference. Like, I would never say that medication is for everyone, but it is for some of us. And there's all kinds of chemical things and genetics. All right. That go into that. At the same time, of course, there's spiritual issues. And, you know, my background is one of such performance and approval and, you know, idols in that way. And so to me, it's all mixed together and that it's a holistic approach really, to addressing it, to coming alongside people. But I think it's just important to know that I think there's also a stigma related to medication. And I know that even again, when I first did that, I thought, why do I need medication? And again, not for everybody, but for some of us it's very important and it's a key piece of, of how Jesus heals us and redeems us. So anyway, I just wanted to come back to that for a minute. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you have a comment on that? [00:18:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I just want to say that I'm so glad that you pointed that out. When I talk about things like depression and anxiety, I will tell people there's always a spiritual aspect just because we are spiritual and sometimes there is a physiological aspect as well. So for people who are kind of in the midst of this, I think it's really important that you laid that out there and pointed out that medication can be a very good gift from God when it is used appropriately. And so when we're thinking about, you know, how do I navigate this, the difficulty that I'm in. I like that you pointed out that for some people, it gets to a point where it really is debilitating. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:30] Speaker C: And so when we, when I in the counseling room talk about medication with people, and I don't. I'm not a. I don't prescribe medication, but the way I talk about it is oftentimes medication will allow us to get to a baseline where we can then begin to have conversations and to do heart's work. But for some people, it's. You can't hit that baseline all on your own. [00:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, my story. And again, this is in the article, but, you know, I mean, I got to a place where literally I could not function. I mean, I, I went in to our senior leadership team and I said. And I had to read it. I, I couldn't even. And that I was, I believe I was, prior to 20% capacity functioning. I couldn't, I would just stare at the computer screen. I couldn't respond to emails. A lot of times I couldn't complete sentences. I mean, it was. Yeah, it was a shutdown. And I will say again, getting back to the spiritual side here, it's a miracle that I'm even sitting here with you all and able to coherently describe what happened and to be able. I never thought I could get back in ministry again. I, I never, I didn't think that I would be able to function at a capacity that I could hold, you know, a job that would provide. And again, it, and again, it wasn't rational. None of this is rational. And I think that's what's so hard for people who haven't experienced it to understand that it. You can spiral to a point where you're convinced in your mind of some things, but it's not rational. And so Jesus is so good. He's so good. And, you know, so I've. I've had two. What I would say are collapses in the last five years. But both times it was clear that Jesus brought me out of the pit and he used different means to do that. But the primary piece of that is a reawakening of his love for me. It's the gospel. It's the reawakening of, right, you are my son, whom I love and am well pleased. Just like he says to Jesus at his baptism. He's saying to us, right, that we've basically been resurrected from the dead spiritually. Just, oh, I have four things that I probably repeat almost every morning that are just have to do with identity. But again, it was Jesus who, who rescued me. And that gets into just these two things that I've learned in terms of what I encourage everyone to do that have been so helpful to me. The first is, is courage. And we kind of talked about this already, but it's the courage to be able to, to say I need help. It's hard. Yeah, it's really hard. And quite honestly, I didn't realize. I knew I was struggling and I was sharing that, but I didn't realize how far down I was. But just the courage to say, I need help. It can be to a friend, it can be to a spouse, it can be to anyone. But just that whole thing of please don't stay isolated. Don't stay alone, because that is where I think things can really get dangerous. So the courage to just say, I need help. Don't suffer in silence. There are. You'll be amazed at how many people struggle. And you'll be amazed at how compassionate people will be with you. And the other is community. I don't. Jesus. Powerfully used. I mean, I will say this. I was blessed to have built such strong, deep, authentic friendships with other men. And I will say the biggest hero of this story, besides Jesus, is my wife. That's a whole nother podcast. But I'll just say that what her faithfulness and her steadiness and her patience and her. Unbelievable. Yeah. And then some trusted other men who've walked with me for many years. So I say my team. I think it's important for all of us believers to have our team. And for me, that's obviously family. I consider professionals, part of my team, and that's a counselor and a psychiatrist. Again, getting back to saying, whether you have medication or not, it's so good to have an independent, professional person who can walk with you just like you guys do every day with people, to be able to help them see things they can't see. And then again, the church leadership here at Perimeter, I cannot say how wonderful our executive leadership team, my team and others have been. And then this band of brothers. You brought up Matt, right? [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:43] Speaker A: I will say, you know, I could list a number of band of brothers, but, you know, Matt Brinkley is that unique one who literally, in my depths, we will almost communicate every day. And he. He listens, he cares. He. He's the one who sat across from me. This was the first time, and he had been. He saw. [00:26:11] Speaker B: He. [00:26:12] Speaker A: He'd seen a decline over probably six months. And he. At one point, he. He looked at me and he said, you are really doing poorly and you need help right now. And he picked up his phone and he called a counselor that we both knew and said, chip and I need to meet with you this afternoon. [00:26:33] Speaker C: Wow. Wow. [00:26:35] Speaker A: And, yeah, that's a gift. Yeah, it's an incredible gift. And we did. And that was a Friday and a Monday. I went before our, you know, our leadership team. And so, yeah, again, courage and community for me are huge. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's beautiful. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Yeah. I think that leads really nicely into our next question. Talking about the team that you have in their life for people out there who. Maybe they're not necessarily the ones struggling, but maybe they're part of someone else's team. Yes, let's. What would you want them to know as they are walking alongside people who are struggling in these ways? [00:27:18] Speaker A: Yes. You know, I know it's so hard because you. You care so deeply for the person and you don't know what to do. So this will sound trite, but honestly, the most important thing you can do is pray and pray fervently. You know, I know for Leanne and I, we. We would actually have couples, very close couples, come and pray with us. I knew I had a team praying for me. You know, again, we say this a lot, but if you are praying for someone fervently that's struggling with us, that is huge. That is huge. So I'd say that first and foremost, you know, I think, like I said, I think it's so hard to know what to do. I think I would put it maybe that it's okay that you don't know what to do. It's okay. And I also want to say it's okay if that person doesn't reach back out to you. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:44] Speaker A: I. I definitely lean more towards the extrovert. I like being around people, but when I am struggling the most, I do not want to be around anyone. Now, I will say accept people that I feel, again, extremely safe with. And again, I knew that I had to continue to get with some people. I just. I, you know, but I. It wasn't many. And so don't feel bad if they don't reach back out to you. It's just. It's impossible to understand, like I was saying, what they may be going through. But. And I think it's also. It's not anybody's responsibility to fix us. Only the Lord could do that. And I think we're. We have good intentions and sometimes in. In saying scripture to us and just know that we. It's true. All that is true. But it may not be helpful in that time because we know those things. And then we just feel worse because. Because we know those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. But I think it's. Again, it's okay to. To not know what to do. And. But I will say, if you are someone who particularly they reach out to you or for whatever reason, you are safe. Be a faithful presence. The most powerful thing is just being a presence with them and listening. Yeah. Listen a lot. Just listen with empathy. Honestly, we're not going to really remember necessarily what you say to us, but we will remember your presence. We'll remember that you care, that you love and that you're with us. And so, yeah, the faithful presences powerful. And then I will stay just like the story I just shared with Matt. There's some unique situations where you, you just. You're so in tune with somebody and there's such a safe, authentic, trusted friendship. And you see them spiraling, you see them, even you're concerned about, you know, it's concerning. It could be dangerous. And then I would say feel free to confront in a loving way and do what Matt did to me and say, you need help. You need help, and I'm going to get. I'm going to help you get help. You may not even be able to get your own help right now, but I'm going to help you get that help. And so I do think there's unique situations where the Lord has placed us in someone's life and we're able to speak in and again, be. I don't know how much longer I would have gone if Matt hadn't done that. So I think those are some of the things I would say to, you know, for spouses. I think there's. That's a whole nother level in a way that only, you know, my wife and others, I think, can really speak to. But I would again, just encourage them with patience and. Yeah, and patience and love and encouragement. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Do you notice how on this end of how you described, really two really difficult struggles collapses even on this side of walking with God, but as compared to before? [00:33:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:10] Speaker B: How has your view of him changed? Has your view of how you walk with him anything different to that? A different accent to it? Maybe? [00:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's a different depth of intimacy. I think there's a different depth of dependence. I think there's again, sort of a growth in love. A growth? Yeah, it's hard to define. But again, I think the Lord knows this is. Again, this is all part of his plan for my life in some way. And it's part of. This is part of my sanctification process. I know, like every believer, that he who began a good work in us is going to bring it to completion at the day of Jesus. So I know that I'm moving like all of us towards that. And even when it seems like. So I have a couple favorite scriptures and maybe this will. One of them is when Paul begs Jesus to deliver him from the thorn. It's so interesting because he doesn't beg him to deliver him from all the beatings and torture, but whatever. And again, we don't know what. What that was, but we do know what Jesus said. And I Can you know, Paul, Paul, my grace is sufficient for you. My power is made perfect in weakness. So in God's economy, in his kingdom, he most works through our weakness because that shows his strength. And I think I've gone to a whole nother level of maybe understanding that. And I don't. Still don't like it. Honest, I don't really like it. But I just think that, you know, again, in our weakness and our dependency and our crying out and pleading and desperation, he shows up in a powerful way and he uses us in powerful ways. The other one is reminding ourselves of the heart of Jesus who. All right. He says, come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Right. Take my yoke upon you. Learn from me. And then he says, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and I will give rest for your souls. And what's so fascinating, it's the only piece of scripture in the Gospels that talk about his heart. And it says gentle and lowly. So he's with us. He's with us. And he was, you know, he went through the most excruciating form of weakness and lowliness. So he's with us and he can understand more than anybody else. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Dane Ortland wrote a book called Gentle Dilly where he talks about that. And he's got a shorter one. The Heart of Jesus, or how Jesus truly feels about you was another good little reference there. [00:36:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:58] Speaker B: I love that. That connects so well to your story. [00:37:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think. Yeah. I think that we are gifted and we all have strengths, and I think God uses all of those, but he powerfully uses our weakness. And I think we tend to run from that, again, out of. Because of pride or shame or whatever it may be. But I actually think it's one of the key characteristics of Kingdom Disciples is weakness and really understanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Speaker C: I think as we kind of wrap up our time together, I imagine there may be people out there who are right in the midst of a struggle. So for those people who are kind of in the throes of depression or anxiety, what, from your perspective, what might be a next step for them or how would you encourage them right now? [00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'd say, man, I'm so sorry for what you're experiencing. That again, somewhat repetitive, but you're not alone. And reach out to somebody. Reach out to somebody again, a friend, a counselor, and tell them where you really are and just that you need help. And then I would say, fine, you know, find a good Christian counselor and you know, obviously in churches, I mean, we're incredibly blessed here at Perimeter. But wherever you are, there are good Christian counselors in your community if they're not directly connected to your church. But I think it's that simple. Step of just. And I know it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage. So I'm not trying to downplay this step, but it is. It's okay. It's okay to admit that you really struggle in this area. [00:39:08] Speaker C: Yeah. I love how you put that. And I know for people who are struggling, it often feels overwhelming when you look ahead or try to imagine what it would look like on the other side. And one thing that I always remind people is what God calls us to is just the next step. Yes, just the next step. And not only does that require courage, it's also an act of faith. And so to just encourage people, you know, it's hard to say, I'm going to look 20 steps down the road until I am, you know, healed or whatever it might be, but maybe the Lord is saying to you, just take one step. Call a friend, reach out to someone. [00:39:48] Speaker A: Yes. That's all it takes. [00:39:50] Speaker C: Yeah. That's a good. [00:39:52] Speaker A: It's the first step. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chip, what I. If I could summarize, it's Jesus is the hero. You have your story, no doubt. He's the hero of Kathy's story. He's the hero of my story. Everyone that's listening, we want to be, don't we? And I see that. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:13] Speaker B: And I see that clearly as you shared. And so he is magnified through your story. [00:40:19] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:40:20] Speaker B: And I hope you hear that as well. We're praying for you. And if you are struggling, please do reach out to us, a counselor, a church in the area. And thank you so much for joining us, and we look forward to being with you next time.