[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. Welcome back to our podcast here again with Karen and Kathy. And last time we talked a lot about emotions and some of the even shame that Christians feel with emotions. And so today we're going to talk a little bit more about unwanted emotions, particularly and maybe a framework or some principles to think through unwanted emotions. So we have some other resources on our website. One is some articles we've written. And so Karen actually wrote on unwanted emotions and how to deal with negative emotions. And we want to talk through some of those principles today. So as I think about the first one here, we've got Emotions are a part of our humanity. Tell me, Karen, as you were writing that, what were you thinking as far as emotions and kind of what led you to maybe even say it that way? [00:01:23] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for asking that. I think it's because oftentimes when people come into counseling, emotions are not something that they think are necessary to explore. They don't understand or they just don't want to explore. But they are part, as we said in our last podcast, they are part of God's design. They are indicators of something that we're perceiving that's going on in our life, whether good or bad. I mean, if we're like I have, my daughter's getting married next month and my husband told me the other day, you seem so happy. You've been bouncing around the house. And so I feel like it's visible. Like that is a real emotion and it expresses itself in a way. I didn't realize that I was bouncing around the house, but now I know. But they are emotions. And when we look at Psalms, there are six distinct motions. And I'm sure you can even break those emotions down. Even more specifically, the Psalms speak to joy, to sorrow, to hope, anger and fear. But we love the joy and that happiness and we love having hope. But when we have those other emotions, sometimes we don't love those. But they're so purposeful in our life. And because the Psalms gives us so much language for them, and because we see them like you spoke about Caleb, in our last blog, about how Jesus even expressed those types of emotions of anger and maybe sorrow, that we can recognize if they're part of us, we need to acknowledge them and use them for the way that God intended, which is to help us to understand what's going on when we're suffering. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Here's a question. Can you obey God when you're experiencing negative emotions? And should you, or what does that look like? [00:03:07] Speaker B: Wow. [00:03:10] Speaker C: Well, is it possible to obey God in the midst of negative emotions? I think we have to say, yes, it's possible. It is hard, right. When we sit with people and they are going through something tragic or really painful, it is really, really difficult to say, well, you know, what has God called us to right now in this moment? And I think part of actually that obedience is to come to him with those emotions and to engage those emotions. And so, you know, I want people. I would love for people to walk away feeling like, you know, when I bring these emotions to the Lord, I am being faithful and I am responding to him by faith. So is it possible? Yes. And while it is, I think, sometimes extremely hard, I think that the way we think about it can also change that just by engaging the Lord, we are taking those steps towards him in the midst of that difficulty. And I think that sometimes we think that, you know, God's kind of standing there waiting for us to do the right thing and, you know, get over the feelings. But what I would love for people to know is that he's with us in the midst of the feelings. And when he calls us to obedience in the midst of is not as a demanding taskmaster God, but it is a God who loves us and who desires for us to grow and to know him more in the midst of it. I think the other way that we know that it's possible is like Karen mentioned, is just seeing the example of Jesus who was fully human and who felt the whole range of human emotion. And it was hard, yet he obeyed and he was faithful to the end. So, yeah, can we obey? We can. A lot of the times it is by the power of the Holy Spirit. [00:05:11] Speaker A: But sometimes it's in those. I've heard it said, like the reason. So going to God, like with negative emotions, actually maybe sometimes more of a true sign of faith than when things are going well. Because if you believe God is good and you believe God is powerful and your life is not going well, or you are experiencing a lot of. Maybe it's suffering or negative emotions, then going to God is actually a proof that you do believe that he can do something about it. Because if you thought he was just bad, you wouldn't go to him anyway. Or if you thought he wasn't powerful, then why Pray so you can. I think Paul Miller in A Praying Life talks about us resigning ourselves to cynicism. And that's oftentimes what we do functionally. We don't really believe God is powerful. And so even he illustrates in his book A Loving Life, where Naomi goes in the book of Ruth. She's experienced so much hardship, but she still walks toward the city of Bethlehem because she knows God is her God. But she even renames herself as Call me Bitter because God has dealt bitterly with me. So even though she's experiencing all these emotions, she still walks in obedience to God and like hopes in him. And that is, I think, a picture of probably our Christian heritage in a lot of ways. And sometimes, I guess, in our kind of American subculture, we think about health and emotions are tied to only the positive ones. Right. Only when I feel happy, then I'm healthy. I don't know. I just don't know about that. When I read the Scriptures and when I see how God talks about it. [00:07:11] Speaker C: That'S a great point. And that what you just brought up about Naomi reminds me of another quote from the Mark Brokup book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, where he talks about the yet bridge in some of the Psalms. Where we see in the Psalms, these psalmists are struggling with really strong negative emotions coming to God with questions and complaints. And then there is this, yet, yet I will praise you, yet I will remember. And he says that that yet is the place where pain and belief coexist. And that has been really helpful for me. Kind of along that same vein is that we can experience negative emotions and unwanted emotions and choose by faith to believe that God is still good and those two things can coexist. But again, like you said, it pushes against what we feel should be. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And one of your points in the article is our negative emotions are reminders that things are not as they should be. [00:08:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:13] Speaker A: So maybe say more about that. [00:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, because we know in our hearts when we were created good and Adam and Eve, when they walked with the Lord, there was no negative. There were no negative emotions. The things were as they should be. And it was only when they ate of the tree of good and evil that they were aware then. And they were filled with shame and they hid from God. And so I feel like that is the key, is just understanding that. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of Romans 8, where Paul goes in. I think it's kind of verses 11 through 27, he goes on this, you know, the creation is cursed and we're longing for the curse to be broken. And it's interesting. We often think about Romans 8:28 in that context of God's working all things for good. And that is such a beautiful verse. But sometimes we can take it and we can kind of paste it on top of negative emotions. And I don't think that's the intent that God had for those verses because in the context, he's talking about how suffering is so strong. He also has this little phrase there where it's beautiful. He talks about the creation is groaning. And then he says the Holy Spirit meets us and groans in our groanings with groanings too deep for words. And the Holy Spirit. It's almost like when we experience negative emotions, sometimes we can't even name them. But the Holy Spirit feels those too and takes them to God for us and kind of comforts us as well. I think that speaks to one of your other points. God moves toward us when we experience negative emotions. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, for that, I think a lot of Hagar. I don't know why, but just picturing her crying out to the Lord and she was so desperate and just seeing God's compassion so much that when she experienced his compassion so much that she said, he, he sees me. He's the God who sees. And there's something very healing for all of us when we are really in a lot of pain that God might not. And sometimes I would say in my life often hasn't removed the things that's caused me hurt and sorrow and suffering. But when he says, I see you, Karen, and I care about you, that just covers everything I can. It's like a miracle that God works that way. But he does. And he's done that for my life. I see him doing it in other people's lives that sometimes, oftentimes we don't need the thing to change. We just need to know God's with us and he sees us. For me, a phrase that I say in my mind a lot is God has a plan. And there's something when I'm going through a hard time just knowing he sees me, he knows he's coming towards me and he has a plan that just gives me so much peace and comfort. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah, we quoting a lot of books and resources, but there's an organization called ccef, Christian Counselor Educational Foundation. They have a lot of good resources. One of the ones is by an author named Mike Emlett. He has a book called Saints Sufferers and Sinners. [00:11:22] Speaker C: Love that book. [00:11:23] Speaker A: It's great. And I think we are talking About a lot so far. Saints like us being saints. So we're children of God and then we're suffering. Right. And God meets us in our suffering. There's an aspect of negative emotions, though, and I think it's important to go in this order when we're dealing with people is, hey, you're a child of God, you're suffering. But there might also be your own sin response too. So I don't know, how do we make sense of that as related to negative emotions? And how do we help people? And how do we think about our own hearts? [00:11:59] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's one I love. In the context of that book, when I think about people who are in sin and maybe feel conviction over the sin and feel guilt over the sin, we think about the God who moves towards us. But we don't always think of that in the context of when we sin. We see God has compassion on people who are sick, people who have been mistreated, like Hagar. But what I've reminded people of and what I remind myself of too, is that God is a God of compassion, even in the face of sin. And if you look at the history of Israel, I mean, it's a history of a people who willfully turn against God over and over and over again, yet he meets them with compassion over and over and over again. And so for anybody out there who might be struggling with kind of guilt over sin or allowing past sin to kind of define you in the present, feeling like God is not near because of some kind of sin in your past, you know, I would encourage you to consider that God is a God who moves towards us in compassion, even when that guilt that we carry comes as a result of our own sin. And I think that that is something. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think we think of compassion in the context of suffering. But God is so much. He's so other than we are that he looks at us and sees our great need of him, particularly in the face of our sin. So I'm glad you brought that up. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:27] Speaker B: And I think another thing to piggyback off of that is that our experience with people is that when we're suffering or when we're sinning is they don't draw near to us when we're sinning. People typically want to back away, but so that's sometimes why we have that belief, maybe that that's what God's response would be. And so that's why it's so Important for us to know that even though everybody else might turn from you, God will turn towards you. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Yes, I think about. Even we talked about Jesus and negative emotions. And one of the glaring examples is, right, Jesus quotes directly from Psalm 22, when he's on the cross. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me in that moment? The reason why God can draw near to us now is because he took Jesus, took our sin to where the extent that Jesus was even feeling and recognizing the reality of I have the weight of all of my people on my shoulders, to where he would say, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And because he was forsaken and he went to the grave and was arose again, he kind of paved the way for us to experience that heart of God. As you guys mentioned of whenever we sin now, God can draw near because we have a high priest. We have somebody who's gone through and done the work. His blood covers us. And so it's so important to remember that, because I think people in our negative emotions, when we kind of turn in on ourselves and are shameful and we're not vulnerable because we're afraid of what other people might do if they found out who we truly are. But when we go to God, repentance should be a moment of joy because we're recognizing that he has died on the cross for us. And if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us. And what I've actually seen is the more vulnerable I am with people, the more they come close in a concept of Christian community that oftentimes they come closer. So it's interesting how we think sometimes they're going to shun us, but oftentimes people do meet us in unexpected ways with the heart of God as well. Another good resource is Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortland. He's got a smaller one that we've been looking at recently. I think it's Heart of Jesus, how Jesus really feels about you. It's a good resource as well. So any other thoughts on this topic of negative emotions? Anything you'd want to say to the listeners kind of about this to wrap us up? [00:16:13] Speaker B: I just think. One other thing I'd like to point out, and this is where talking about our emotions to other people is helpful, is that sometimes we. I think it's important to understand we can have a negative or an unwanted emotion coupled with an emotion that's not negative. And I think we see that a lot in psalms. Like we can Our soul can be distressed in us, yet we can hope in him. We can hope in Christ. And so I think, even when I'm working with people in counseling, that I try to get them to see that, yes, there's this heavy fear, anxiety, sorrow, but could there also be some joy or some hope there? They can coincide at the same time, and that helps. I think that equips us to be able to handle those negative emotions better. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Absolutely. There was a sermon at our church yesterday by a guy named Dr. Crawford Loritz, and he talked about joy, and he said joy is different than happiness. Joy is anchored into something that is unchanging. And that's, I think, a helpful place to land the plane. Here is what you're saying is I could be having really hard circumstances, but I could have joy in the Lord unchanging. And so our hearts have maybe 50 emotions going on at the same time. We don't know. But there's hope in all of that, that God's with us. Right? Thank you, guys. This is really helpful. I know for me, and hopefully it was helpful for everyone else, too. Thanks for joining us. Look forward to next. Boom. Hey, I had fun. Isn't this fun?