[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. Welcome to another episode of the Perimeter Counseling Podcast. This is Caleb Martin and I'm here with my co host, Kathy Chang. And we have a very special guest, Jimmy Kim with us today. He's actually both Kathy and I's supervisor. So that's a. That's one tidbit. So all credit goes to Jimmy. If you like the podcast, you can. Do you have anything to like on social media or anything? [00:00:50] Speaker A: I mean, I do, but I try to keep those private. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Okay. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Send an email to Jimmy if you can shine that where that works. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah, send. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, only positive ones. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Let them send emails. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Sure. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Well, we are here to talk about a topic that many of us struggle with. I'm going to hold that now and let Kathy share that. But Jimmy, tell us a little bit about yourself. How long you been at Perimeter? Maybe about your family. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. And yeah. That you would introduce me as your supervisor. I guess that's a way to introduce. But I see you guys as friends and I'm not. That's not management, say as our friends and certainly co ministers, co laborers, and the gospel work that we get to do here at Perimeter. I've been here for 15 years, various roles, but starting off as the high school discipleship coordinator, working with all of our high school students, with all of our adult volunteers, overseeing a lot of that, and had done that for about nine years altogether and then moved into a short stint in a department called Department of Redemptive Unity. And that was really a work around helping our church, both our leadership as well as our members better reach and represent the geographical population or the area of Johns Creek and beyond. Is the church mirroring kind of the diversity that's out in our community? And does our community feel welcome to come here? So did that through 2021, and then I was invited to be a part of the executive leadership team here overseeing what we call our Family Transformation division, which includes middle school, high school ministry, our Kids Thrive ministry, the counseling team, as well as young adults. Awesome. [00:02:46] Speaker B: Thank you, Jimmy. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah. As for my family. Married. We've been married for 20 years. Celebrated 20 years this past May. My wife and I are. Thank you. My wife and I are both Korean American and second generation Korean American, which I think we'll maybe talk about later on. I think that plays into our topic today. And then we have two kids, a 15 year old daughter and then an 11 year old son. Awesome. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Thanks, Jimmy. Kathy, you want to tell us a little bit about our topic and what it's about? [00:03:16] Speaker C: Sure. We are in a series on common counseling issues. So these are topics that we see frequently in the counseling room. So hopefully this will be meaningful to a lot of you who are listening today. So today's topic is shame and guilt. Two different things, very related, but they are distinct. And so I think we would want to start by just talking about what are shame and guilt. What is the difference between shame and guilt? So the way I often talk about this in the counseling room, because I have people who come in and alternately may say I feel very guilty or I feel very ashamed. And so we talk about what is different about that experience. Guilt, the way that I would kind of encapsulate it, says I did something bad or I did something wrong. Shame, on the other hand, says I am bad or something is wrong with me. So guilt tends to focus more on things that we have or haven't done. And shame focuses on who I am and how people see me. So that's, I think, an important distinction to make talking about, you know, is it good or bad, is it right or wrong to feel guilt and shame. I think what we want to point out is that in scripture there is clearly a place for guilt. Guilt for sin is biblical and that leads us to repentance. So we don't want to get mired in our guilt, but the guilt should lead us to repentance. There's also false guilt, which we probably are not going to get into too much today. That could probably be another one all on its own. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:04:52] Speaker C: And then as far as shame goes, you know, is there a place for shame? I would say there is to an extent, in that shame in its right place leads us to repentance when we have guilt over sin. But by and large, should our lives be characterized by shame? I would say no, that that's not what the Lord has for us. That when Jesus died to take the guilt, he took the shame as well. So if you're out there listening today and you feel just kind of a pervasive sense of shame in your life, I hope what we have to talk about today will be helpful to you. So starting with that, I don't know if you all have something you want to add to that that was a real, like, nutshell. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Great summary. [00:05:38] Speaker A: It is. That's super helpful. [00:05:40] Speaker C: Okay, then why don't we jump in? I would love for, Jimmy, for you to share some of your own background with us. Maybe your own experience of shame and guilt or having been in ministry for so long, just kind of where you've seen it come out in ministry. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Shame and guilt have been a very impactful part of my upbringing and kind of feeling throughout life. I think part of it is strongly connected to my upbringing with immigrant parents having come from Korea to the States and something that's common amongst second generation children of immigrants. What they would say is that their parents probably often told them, we did this for you. We did this for your brother and your sister, for our family. As if to say, okay, now you have the pressure to succeed. Make it worth it. I sometimes think about the end of Saving Private Ryan, right? When Tom Hanks's character says to Private Ryan, earn this. Look at what all we have done for you. So now go earn it. And you see this character at the end of the movie, it moved to tears because he's like, have I done enough? And what is enough, right? So imagine now you're, you know, five year old boy and you hear this from your parents like, hey, our business needs to succeed and you need to succeed to make all of this that we gave up worth it. Right. And how much they did that intentionally, I'm not going to say they, they were trying to, you know, burden my brother and myself, but I certainly felt that. And I think that's a common enough experience again of children of immigrants. And so when I say second generation Korean American, my wife and I both being that, that is a kind of a shared trauma that we had wearing that burden of expectation and earning the fact that our parents sacrificed everything for us. I think maybe what that kind of also gets into is this sense of what I do and who I am is shaped by other people. And so that works both ways in some ways. Like, my dad did something awesome. I am so proud that that's my dad. Right? My brother did something on, you know, the athletic field. That's my brother. I share in some of that glory. But then there's also this sense of if someone did something wrong, whether they're part of my family or not, or even in my community or not, I feel a sense of shame. So there's this idea of like Asians behaving badly. And so I'll see it on the news and it's like, you see Something happen and you're like, oh, no, it's an Asian person. And you feel like. Even though I had no idea who this person is, but strangely in my own being, I feel guilty or I feel a sense of shame, rather there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with my people. And that's. That took a long time to process and gain an understanding of what does my union with Christ actually look like and how does that radically shift and change my perspective on life and how I interact with others and especially within myself. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I just want to note that maybe the difference there for. From even my perspective as a white American young boy growing up, I was. I didn't really associate thinking about individual versus corporate. You're talking about there's a very much a felt corporate identity of healed and shame. I didn't. I don't know when we talked about this, I don't know that I've ever thought about that except in a biblical sense of thinking about it. Maybe like Romans 5, and am I in Adam or in Christ? And I'm kind of having to force myself to think a little corporately. But mine are all primarily shame because of my actions or guilt because of my actions. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:59] Speaker B: And there's a little bit of a distinguishing nature. I wonder how that maybe affects you. Is there more of a temptation towards shame and guilt or how is it different? [00:10:09] Speaker A: I would say it's kind of a double indemnity. You feel a personal sense like, oh, I don't. I don't amount to. [00:10:17] Speaker B: You have that. That I have. Yeah. [00:10:19] Speaker A: But then I also have someone else's guilt or someone else's wrong that I feel like, of course I'm not that other person, but I certainly. It's easier for me to kind of almost empathize in a kind of a negative way. Like it. I feel that I know. An example that a lot of Korean Americans often will bring up is the horrific campus shooting that happened at Virginia Tech. And it was a Korean American student. And when you initially heard about the attack, you're like, oh, no, that's terrible. Right. But then when you found out it was a Korean American, I was like, oh, no again. And then I went through like, okay, do I know this person? Or am I connected to this person somehow? Or do our communities kind of overlap? And none of that did. But I still felt this weird sense of like, not that I did that, but I felt the burden of it. It was very easy to feel that I didn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get there. Yeah. So yeah, that collectivistic mentality or corporate mentality is one that's super ingrained into me. [00:11:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know if our listeners know. I also am Korean American, same as Jimmy. My parents were first generation immigrants here. So, Caleb, you're outnumbered today. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:11:48] Speaker C: But yeah, that whole idea of the collective shame and honor. We talk about Asian cultures often being shame and honor cultures and it's something I don't even think that necessarily our parents intentionally or explicitly passed on to us, but it was kind of in the way we were raised. There's something about not talking about the things that are hard because it's shameful to the family. There is also something about doing things well to bring honor to your family and that over time, like it just, it weighs on you even from a young age. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:27] Speaker B: So there's even maybe a just the added. So I think probably individualistically in scriptures speak to this. It's by grace through faith, not of your works that no one boasts. There is an ingrained part of the reasons Paul is saying that yes, experientially it's Christ, but also he also talks about, hey, we tend to work for our salvation. We want to, we want to earn something, we want to bring something to the table. That's true of everyone, but maybe more so you guys would say in your context of like, oh, well, I also have to have the pressure of succeeding for my family or coming through for my. The subculture that I represent. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah. A hundred percent. That desire to earn and show that you're good enough. Again, going back to this idea that whereas guilt is like I did something wrong, shame is I am wrong. You feel that with even how you try to redeem yourself. Right. It's like it's Jesus plus. And so that's a hard concept, I think for a lot of Asian Americans or anyone that kind of grows up in a honor shame kind of worldview. Because it's like, is it really that easy that I could just believe in Jesus's work for me? Don't I should have to do something. I've. My whole life has existed around I have to earn, I have to earn, I have to do. And so this idea of just simple faith in Christ seems almost impossible. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe since we're talking about that, what makes. We're speaking to it a little bit, what makes it particularly so difficult when you're thinking about guilt and shame and then maybe up and against that desire to earn, to perform, talk about what makes it so difficult. [00:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I think a big part of it is that you're taught, or maybe I assumed at an early age that you don't ever talk about those bad things or those hard things because it brings up bad emotion, bad feelings, a bad sense of self. And so you change the topic. [00:14:36] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:37] Speaker A: It's kind of the classic, you know, kid in the classroom who's, you know, the class clown. Right. Why do they do that? Well, sometimes it is to make other people feel good, but it's usually some kind of a coping mechanism for some other deeply seated, you know, fear or sense of anxiety. And for a lot of people, myself included, when it came time to, like, sharing about our need for Christ and talking about then our sin and our sinfulness and our need to repent, I had no problem ever admitting that I needed a savior. But I had tons of problems ever getting specific about and sharing with other people those areas where I was struggling. So, for instance, I remember, and you and I were in discipleship together whenever we would kind of talk about maybe some kind of brokenness in home. I grew up with an alcoholic father, and there were a lot of times where I did not want people to know that. So I would never talk about it because it brought so much shame to me and to my family. And so when people would try to pursue my heart and that, I just shut down. [00:15:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:50] Speaker A: And I never would work on it, never kind of allow the Spirit to do a redeeming work there, helping me understand that my identity is not in my dad's sinfulness or that is some kind of generational sin. Right. But when it's left internal and is left just in my head and I'm not processing it with other people, and especially not letting the gospel speak to it, of course my sense of my identity is going to be hurt, is riddled with anxiety. People are going to find out, and that's even cause for more shame. If people ever knew how much of a failure I was or I have all this brokenness in me, then I can't continue on. And so you just bury things, you hide things. And it's to the point where you. I think it's a common enough trope with Asian Americans where you don't talk about those things so much to the point that you burn out. You have physical kind of realizations of like, just how unwell you are and sadly to the point of mental unhealth, of taking one's own life, it's easier and better to do that than to talk about your shame or your brokenness. And that breaks my heart. Yeah, absolutely. [00:17:09] Speaker C: I so much appreciate kind of the light that you're bringing to our experience. And for those listening, I do also want to highlight that shame is a universal experience. Right. So I think you've added such nice color to what it is like on one particular cultural aspect of it. But maybe we could talk about just like that universal experience of shame, though we might experience it more individually or more communally. You know, kind of why is this so prevalent for so many of us? And I think, you know, obviously a lot of that goes back to the garden. Right, Absolutely. And it talks about in Genesis 2:25, when the man and woman were created, they were naked, but not ashamed. And I find it so interesting that that's highlighted in. In that particular verse. And so one of the results of the fall, then, is that they were ashamed. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Right. They covered themselves up. [00:18:06] Speaker C: Yeah. And so, you know, that's one of those experiences of shame, is that we hide and we cover, and we don't want people, as you were sharing, to see those parts of us that are weak, that are sinful. And so even though you're talking about your experience and I talk from my experience, there's a lot of that that is common to all of us. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And no one's going around boasting about their weaknesses, yet that's the very thing. [00:18:35] Speaker B: That Christ that instructs us, Paul instructs. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Us to do in First Corinthians. Right. Boast about those things, because that puts to light the work of Christ in us. And so, yeah, while this might be this conversation around guilt and shame is felt kind of differently from me, the way that it's come up in ministry here at Perimeter, to students, to their parents, children of all ages, is one simply having that openness to say, like, there's no part of your life that is unknown to God. Right. And some people kind of run away from that thought. Oh, no, that's so exposing. It makes you feel too vulnerable. But that is the best place to be because there's only one person, that being God, who can see all of your junk and still loves you so much, to the point where he gave his only son. And that comes back over and over when a student or again, a parent is expressing some kind of sense of brokenness or shame. I don't deserve or I am this. And I remind them, you may feel that. Yes. But what is the gospel reality? If you have faith in Christ, you no longer are in shame. [00:19:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Christ has taken that shame and put it to shame by putting it on the cross right in him. Through faith, by his grace. Right. We are loved and we are accepted. Our identity is forever changed. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Shame just feels stickier than other things to me. I don't know. It's like. It's hard. It's like you can't. As much as I want to, no performance, nothing that I do can get me clean. It really does feel like that exposure, that if I can just kind of hide this piece of me in the dark, but the opposite's true. But, you know, I'll be better, I'll look better, but it's like you can't ever cover that. But when Jesus shines his light on it, that's when true transformation starts to happen. So the opposite is like Paul said. You referenced boasting in weaknesses, boasting in those things, actually saying, I am bankrupt. You know, nothing in my hands I bring simply to the cross. I cling naked, Come to thee, Forgive me. Dress helpless, look to thee for grace. [00:21:07] Speaker A: That's good. [00:21:08] Speaker B: That's such a good hymn. Yeah. Yeah, I'll sing it instead of say it next time. Maybe what you. You kind of are speaking to. You're not. You've not named this doctrine of union with Christ, but you've mentioned it a few times in passages. Maybe that's a way that Christ has freed you. And as you're speaking to others, I want to talk about how maybe union with Christ speaks to this idea of shame. [00:21:37] Speaker A: Okay, bear with me. I think this might be a little circular, but as you were speaking, it reminded me of a picture of something that Tim Keller writes about in that little booklet, Freedom of Self Forgetfulness. And it's this picture of Christ has forgiven us, and we are cleared in that courtroom, and yet we are knocking on the judge's chamber's door saying, let me back in so that I can defend my cause when Christ has already done that for us. I bring that up because I still feel like there's always this sense like I need to do something. It can't simply be that simple or easy. But the more I dwell on Christ has done it all right, there's greater comfort, there's greater assurance. There is a greater sense of peace internally because there is nothing that I can do. And some days it's faster than other days when I can cling to that hope and it brings me joy. But that, again, is part of the practice of. You know, we talk about the gospel waltz around perimeter often. Am I repenting out of Sorrow? Am I repenting in joy? And how am I being driven to my union with Christ? Is it one of I back into Jesus because I'm trying to stay away from something else? Or am I really running to Jesus and I'm clinging to that hope? Right. And having been a Christian since, or a follower of Christ since my high school years. Right. I've gone through different phases and waves of legalism to license, but that legalism piece is one that's really hard to shake. And so I get it. I get why I constantly go back to the courtroom doors and say, let me in, Let me defend my case. Jesus forgot to say this or he forgot to do this when that's obviously, you know, that doesn't make any sense. Jesus has done it all. He's my advocate. It is only by him that God looks at me as righteous and justified. Right. [00:23:57] Speaker B: That's good. [00:23:58] Speaker A: So that's a daily reminder. Has to happen often. And some days, again, it's easier than others. Why that's the case is usually because of how much am I looking inwardly in myself versus looking at who Christ is and what he's done. [00:24:13] Speaker C: That's such a great point. I often say that a lot of times the work that we do in the counseling room is talking to people about when the rover meets the road. Like, it's not just those big ideas of union with Christ, but it's in the moment when I doubt myself or when I'm trying so hard. What does it look like? So I think you just painted a really nice picture for us of the fact that it is daily, it is sitting in the truth. It is being reminded. And that sometimes it's harder to. Than others to really hold on to that truth. And that's part of the walk. [00:24:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder. I'm having this reference back to Kelly. Kelly Capek wrote a book, and this is a thing for me. I'm forgetting the title of it, you're Only Human. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Thank you. I was going to say is he. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Got like, yeah, I don't know. I know a couple. I just, you know, so he did. He did a training with our staff a few years ago. But this book talks about sometimes we feel. And I'm getting to kind of this shame and who you are piece. He's like, sometimes as Christians, we feel like Jesus is our older brother and we're. God invites us to a party and Jesus gets us into the door of the party. But God doesn't really want us to be at the party. He just kind of wants Jesus there. And so we kind of go stand in the corner and everybody just wants to talk to Jesus. And that's our Christian experience. So some of that is true. And we talk about justification. Right. Like, Jesus has done everything he's performed. We get his righteousness, we give our sin, we get his grace that we're justified. So we do get in the door that way. But there's a sense where it's like God actually uniquely made us. Not as mistakes, but he. If we go Back to Genesis 1, he created us. Very good. Now, we are highlighting a lot of the brokenness of Genesis 3, but there's also true that we do have God's image and there's beautiful things that he's actually redeeming. He's not destroying us and then recreating like a brand new. He's taking those broken pieces and he's making us new. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:30] Speaker B: So I don't know that some of that helps, I think with shame a little bit. Like, I, I am bad as a sinner, but there's also a piece of me that he's redeeming through his grace. Does that make sense? The distinguishing point. [00:26:45] Speaker A: It does, yeah. And that goes back to what is in Romans 12. Right. Is the renewing of the mind and my, you know, as I'm being, you know, made into the image of Christ. Right. And conforming to his will. Right. It's. [00:27:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:02] Speaker A: There is an expulsion of the old one. Putting off of the old and putting on of the new. And some days putting on the new is like you have to tell yourself, get up and put on the new, you know, and. And live in that reality. Maybe kind of like similar to that or akin to that is there's a song that talks about Christ, our sure and steady anchor. And I love the imagery of Christ being our anchor in the storm, but he's also the wind that blows in our sails. And so it's kind of like seeing Christ as someone who steadies me, but also propels me. And different moments of the day, I need some more of that holding presence and other moments, I need more of that propelling peasant peasants. No. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. We talked a little bit about some biblical principles. I kind of threw one over there about union with Christ. But any. Any other principles for folks who are just struggling, whether with the guilt of their sin or the shame, that they are just all bad and they even, not even Christ feels like they can free them of this. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, again, just looking to Christ, who, even as he was foretelling his own death said that he was going to be put to shame. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:25] Speaker A: He didn't finish quite the thought then in Luke 18. But we see it fulfilled later. And we see it oftentimes in Paul's writing where it says that those who believe in him will not be put to shame over and over again. And it's not just Paul. Peter says it as well in First Peter 2, whoever believes in him will not be put to shame. And then it says of Christ, the author of Hebrews, he endured the cross despising its shame, and he endured it and he overcame it. And so what does then our faith in him mean? Well, if he overcomes shame by virtue, I can overcome shame. Right. And I have this promise, this assurance that because I believe in him, I won't be put to sham ever again. I gotta live in that reality. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's a. I think it's important to note kind of, there's a counseling moment for us here. What we talk about a lot is there's a truth and there's a experience. And so we're talking about this truth that is like a compass or a north star. Right. This Jesus has given me. But we should almost, if we do struggle with shame and guilt, we probably almost should expect those feelings to come. Like, this is a. This is a spot I've struggled with. I'm not. It's not just going to magically go away. It's almost like it's better to say, when it comes. [00:29:43] Speaker C: Yes. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:44] Speaker B: When the shame comes, when the guilt comes, you know what? I'm going to look to Jesus and to focus our mind on that versus saying, oh, if I was Christian enough or united enough, then I wouldn't actually struggle. Right, right, right. [00:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And if that conversation lives only in your head. Right. You're just going to continue talking yourself in circles. And that's why I mentioned, for me, being in a group where I was able to openly talk about and share my shame and sinfulness and burden and almost make myself, you know, vulnerable to the people around me, which I always thought was, that's such a sign of weakness. If anything, that's such a sign of a lack of faith because you're talking about your weaknesses instead of boasting about the work of Christ, which theologically it is. Right. But experientially. [00:30:36] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:37] Speaker A: The burden was on me because I never shared any of that shame or any of that hurt. Right. And sure enough, what does the Lord do over time? But I get encouraged because then I realize, oh, it's not Just me. Caleb struggles with this too. Kathy struggles with this too. Right. And it's not that I'm reveling in other people's pain and brokenness, but it helps me feel more human and less. [00:31:05] Speaker B: Of a can outline out what's he thinking back. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:10] Speaker B: It's almost like I was thinking about that kind of bringing it full circle. The corporate can play negative, but the in the corporate speaking to if another image mirror is speaking grace and almost calling out what God has placed inside you imagine and your identity, it's very powerful. I know those have been some of those redeeming moments in my life when I've had a brother or sister speak that into me. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:34] Speaker B: And there is a weird paradox. Like it is easier for me to sit here and say, no, Jimmy, you are in Christ. Like look at what he's done for you. It's easier to speak that to you than to believe it for myself. So it works both ways. [00:31:46] Speaker A: It does, it does. [00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:48] Speaker A: And I'll just add one little piece to that. I think having the patience when you're in an environment where you have different experiences and different upbringings and let's say you're in a group where for someone honor and shame has been their background versus a merit based kind of background, allowing people to kind of express and figure it out together, which is incredibly clunky, is incredibly time consuming. But at the end of it, every time I've seen it work around here or in the context of discipleship is because it was rooted in the shared love of Christ and a commitment to brotherhood or sisterhood. [00:32:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:33] Speaker A: We are for the other because Christ was for us. And so for anyone that's out there, as you may be processing it with a counselor, which is great, or you're processing it with your discipleship group or a close group of accountability friends, do that hard work and hopefully is always pointing back to the truth of the gospel and our union with Christ. I think it's very possible just to share our pains and our hurts and never be led anywhere. I think that practice is. It really repeats the cycle and the process, unfortunately. So it has to land, I think on the cross, the undy tomb. Yeah, absolutely. [00:33:21] Speaker C: Just to kind of wrap up a little bit. I think what that last piece of that conversation I found helpful, just as I was thinking on my own about how the gospel can really bring redemption and reconciliation even to our experience. So talking about just being part of a shame on our culture, how inadvertently perhaps there's damage that has been done in that collectivism but how in the gospel you mentioned, you know, being in that group and having that collective experience brings healing and brings hope. Likewise, you know, there are differences in our experiences, but in the gospel we can be brought together, like you pointed out, Jimmy, to understand one another and to find commonality. And so I just appreciated that as we're talking. [00:34:04] Speaker B: It's really good. Well, Jimmy, any maybe last encouragements you would give to someone just struggling daily with immense weight of guilt and shame or, you know, resources you might highlight? [00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the number one thing is if you don't have someone to talk to or some people to talk to and process together with, finding that is incredibly important. And to take that step of being vulnerable, especially for someone who's never been, that, I think is incredibly important to admit that you're weak. Right. We have to do that before God to begin with. And while it can feel incredibly wrong and open and exposing, to do that with other people, certainly in trusted environments, in a good context, in a healthy context, with people that you trust, and with someone that's been trained as a leader at least to pursue someone's heart in this way, point them to the gospel. I can't encourage it enough. Like get in that environment and take that step. And I do think that starts slowly with. With your own private and personal worship prayer. If you haven't ever expressed that even in prayer, you should probably start there, maybe write it down. But the last thing to do is just to sit there and let it sit in your own brain and for you to spiral on those, on that kind of thinking. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a pastor here, Bob Carter, who's been a pastor since the 80s, and he'll say, the mund is a dangerous place. Don't go there alone. I love that quote. It's helpful. We need each other, Jimmy. [00:35:58] Speaker A: I know. [00:35:59] Speaker B: And Kathy, I'm encouraged by God's grace in this conversation and that he. I'm united to Him. It's so I could do this every day. But thank you so much for joining us today, Jimmy. [00:36:11] Speaker A: Very helpful. Thank you for having me. I hope this is helpful to whoever's listening. And if you're around here at Perimeter, if we struck a chord in some way yet, send that email, reach out to the counseling team and let's. Let's do life together. Right. And let's be pointed to the gospel together. [00:36:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you for joining us today and thank you for listening and we look forward to being with you guys next time.