[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Hi and welcome back to another episode of the Perimeter Counseling Podcast. My name is Kathy Chang. I'm one of the counselors here at Perimeter. And today I am joined by our special guest, Jonah Martinez, and I'm going to let him introduce himself. Jonah, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you're doing and what is kind of exciting in your life right now? [00:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So I am Jonah Martinez, born and raised, Dallas, Texas, recently moved to Georgia a little over two years ago and I've been in student family ministry for around 26 years now in various capacities and even more recently moved into the realm of doing family counseling. And that really is where I am so thrilled to be a part of and be a part of the counseling team at Perimeter. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And we are super excited to have you, Jonah. Family counseling is no small task. And so we're super thankful that you have a heart for this. I love that you shared how much experience you have working with children and families because what we're talking about today is parenting. Now parenting's a huge topic. We could probably do many, many episodes just on parenting. But today we're going to kind of do just like a flyover and talk about what are some big things that we want parents to know to think about as they raise their children in the Lord. I know as a parent myself of a 12 and 15 year old, there is often a feeling of I don't think I'm doing this right. And there are a lot of times when I wish someone would just tell me what to do or give me a formula. But we know that that is not how the Lord operates in our parenting. So let me start by just asking you this, Jonah. When we think as parents of what it means to raise our children in the Lord, what are we really doing? What is our goal? What is our purpose? What, what drives us here? [00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I think just in our own journey as parents and now reentering with a new little one in kindergarten, I guess I failed to mention we have a 22 year old son, a 19 year old daughter and a 5 year old little one. And, and so we've, we've had opportunity to really learn some of the, the beautiful things that God has taught us and, and used us for in our older kids and then some of the things that we could have probably done a little differently along the way. And I would say that our role is not just to manage our kids behavior or even try to manage their lives into a particular niche and, and picture that we have for them, but it's to act as an agent of grace and spiritual guide for our children on behalf of the Lord. They are his children. And so parenting is discipleship and it's a stewardship. And I think that when we enter in that together as parents, it really helps to frame what we do and it helps to bring in the intentionality of what we do on a daily. Even when we mess up, it helps us go back to sort of reframe those moments for our kids. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I really appreciate how you put that. I think as parents now I tend to feel myself and to people I speak with, I think we tend to feel a lot of ownership as parents over our children and exactly what you said, you know, trying to make them into the people that we want them to be or what culture says they should be. But I really like those two joint ideas of discipleship and stewardship. Thinking of them not as belonging to us, but as belonging to the Lord. And our job then is to raise them up as his children. So that's great. Are there, you know, biblical passages or principles that you. That kind of show us that, that speak to how do we envision our role as parents? [00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would say probably the most familiar common, you know, maybe some would say overly played passage, but I think it's where God sets the mark right up front for his people in the Old Testament, which is in Deuteronomy 6. And it's where it's the, the Great Shema. Listen, hear this, O Israel. And he says, you know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might, with all your strength. And, and he's. And then he talks about, and now teach this very love and glory to your children from generation generation. You do that as you walk, by the way, when you lie down, when you rise. And so it's, it's really raising our children up in sort of the awe and wonder of the God we belong to and the God that we serve. And, and so I think that again, when that becomes your overarching theme, we see that God gave us a great commission early on. As the first disciplers of our children's lives. We are the first anointed to be those who point them to the Lord, and particularly to Christ. And so that really is a big part of what has motivated and helped us to come back to, to a place that, that reminds us this is much bigger than our ourselves getting our agenda done. This is really about pointing them to our love for the Lord. I, I love what Ted and Margie Tripp in their book Instructing a Child's Heart, he they write, we cannot impress our children with the fame of God's name if we are not impressed with him ourselves. And, and I think that that really is the case. If, if we are too enamored and in awe of all these various things that we could channel our energy into and put our kids hopes and dreams into and we do it as adults and we model that, then God seems like sort of a, you know, an afterthought a lot of times or something we tackle on. And Christ is. Yeah, just a, It's a sticker badge. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that quote. When I kind of look back at the times when as a parent I feel like, oh, I wish that hadn't gone that way or I wish I had responded differently. Which is like most days, you know, I think those are the moments where I kind of lose sight of that, where I lose sight of who God is and what he's called me to do to be not only as a parent, but as his child myself. I also, I love what you putting it in that framework of Deuteronomy 6 and just reminding us of the fact that he is a covenantal God and that he calls us to be a covenant family. I just want to, you know, take a real quick moment to speak to those people who may not have your own biological children, but who are part of this covenant family. Because we are all called to this teaching and training and raising. And you've done student ministries and a lot of your volunteers, I'm sure, didn't have their own children, but are part of this work of raising up children in the Lord. So just wanted to kind of throw that brief mention in there because we're all doing this together. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Yes. And I'm a firm believer in a family system type of framework in general like that. We are covenant family. And so even within the church working in student ministries in the past and throughout the years is calling, calling other parents, other men and women within, within the Christian community to be spiritual aunts and uncles to our kids. You know, the, the, the elderly, the, the older seasoned saints among us in our church, calling them to be spiritual grandparents to the spiritual grandchildren of our church. So that they understand we are. God intended us to be this interrelated, integrated body that care and help raise these children up from generation to generation. Handing down the faith and pointing them to a love for the Lord and walking with him. Yeah. [00:08:17] Speaker A: So important. Well, in light of kind of that, the framework of discipleship and stewardship as we raise our children together, what are some things that you think parents, that you would want parents to really understand about children, about what it is that they need to know to parent them well and to do this work by faith in the Lord? What are some important principles? [00:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would say understanding our children, when we really take time to try to understand our children, it helps us move beyond what we see behavior wise and understand the why behind it. It's, it's an outflow of what's happening on the inside. And, and I think that there's also just a sense in which as parents we, we get so, so many years down the road as adults. We get down the road, we forget that there's so much that we don't, we don't know when we come into this world. And there's so many beautiful things and there's so many things that we had to learn just hands on for the first time. And our children are entering into that world. And so really there is something about entering into the world of discovery and growth with your child by, by slowing down enough to step back a little with them, to sort of, to crouch down and to pause and awe at a flower and to point and say, yeah, God has made it that way. Or to look at telephone poles and say, you know, God grows the trees so we can get the wood and they take that. But you know, God's given us all these things. That's how we, that's how we help them grow. A true biblical framework and worldview of the world around them and the life they have and the opportunities they have. And so I think just entering into the wonder with our kids and it helps us to see that and then just remembering that it's really a lot of what we're seeing, they are growing into a love for the Lord and we don't want to treat them. I think one of the things that just even coming from my previous denominational background, early on as a Christian, I think I began to adopt this idea that my kids are sinners and they need to hurry up and I need to get them saved and they just don't know anything. And really the simple fact that God had these children born into covenant with parents who love the Lord already, really, it's calling them to step in and believe in the faith as someone who. We give them sort of the benefit of saying, yeah, Jesus loves you. He's come for you. Do you believe that? Keep, keep, keep trusting in that. You're his child, and he's given you this wonderful opportunity to grow in his knowledge and grace of hands. So I think the more that we encourage our children early on, we see them grow into that. And when they begin to struggle and battle a bit, they. They tend to. We can call them to those spaces again and not make them feel like they're outside, but they're already somewhat in as a covenant child. And I think that's really important for our kids to hear regularly and often. Yeah. And I would say a lot of this can be done with what I love in. It's one of my. It's one of my gold books that I go to for years, and I had parents read for years in the schools that I was a part of, which is Instructing a Child's Heart by Ted and Marty Tripp. And the principle that we loved and utilized and we saw the fruit of it in our own kids was what they called formative instruction. And it is sort of this instruction that you. That you do through scripture with your kids. You're spending time helping them understand scriptures and important key scriptures about what it is to grow in Christ, to love the Lord, what He's done. You help them understand the gospel, and you just speak these truths over them and with them. And it's through that that in moments of correction and discipline, you're able to draw on that and see how God connects their hearts to it in those moments versus trying to throw a verse in or really kind of beat them in a holy moment. We're frustrated, and we're already. And they're already resistant. And so I think that that's one of the things and that's part of it is just understanding where our kids are, giving them this sense of, like, this is information that you need to carry you for. For life. [00:12:39] Speaker A: And so, yeah, I love that. And I appreciate the mention of the reference to Ted Tripp. I think maybe we might have parents out there who are familiar with the first book, which is Shepherding a child's heart. And then this is the counterpart for when as the children get a little bit older. And I think it's super helpful for what you're talking about, which is building a biblical framework. And it's helpful for us as parents as well, to Be reminded of what that looks like and how to share that and impart that to our children. I also really liked what you said about just getting to the heart, that it is more than just addressing the outward behaviors. And I'm reminded this is just a personal story. Years ago, when I was single and I was doing children's ministry, I remember coming down the hallway past the Sunday school classes. I was running the children's ministry, and there was a boy sitting outside in the hallway in a chair, clearly had gotten in trouble. And when I sat down with him and I said, you know, why are you sitting out here? And he said, well, I was. We were supposed to be praying and I just crawled under the table and. And so I got in trouble. And I, you know, at that moment, as a parent or as a, you know, a children's ministry director, you could say, well, you know, you really shouldn't be crawling under the table during prayer time. And so next time let's sit in our chair. But for whatever reason, I asked him at that moment, I said, what? Why did you crawl under the table? And he said, well, sometimes when I close my eyes, I get scared because I heard a scary story in the dark. Now, this boy was 5, and you don't always connect that there are things happening in their hearts. But so in that moment, we were able to talk about that. And with a five year old, I was able to say, well, talk about our fear and a God who's bigger than our fear and to pray for God to help him overcome his fear. And so, you know, for all the parents and, you know, everyone else who works with children out there, there's a heart inside those little bodies that is making meaning, that is interpreting the world. And as parents, are we getting to the heart? [00:14:49] Speaker B: Which. [00:14:49] Speaker A: I love that point that you made, you had briefly mentioned discipline. Right. So when we discipline, like all of this is in the background. Discipline is probably one of those things where a lot of parents are like, okay, I need some help with this. Knowing how do I approach this? Some of us are probably doing well, some of us are probably not sure. And so do you have thoughts on what it looks like to discipline our children in the Lord? [00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that's really quite often when I have come in contact with parents themselves is when now in the school, I did a lot of moments of discipline with students in my role in the past. And, and that was sitting down with an opportunity to hopefully walk students through a moment of reflection, confession. And then, and then in that confession, then we would start to seek out repentance and restoration. And so it was really just an opportunity to walk them in that process of God's grace, meeting them when they acknowledge what they've done, but helping them even be able to see it for what it was. But a lot of times I'd have parents that would come in and they would say, I just don't know what to do. They're out of control. I don't. I tried to do this. I tried to do this. And a lot of times, and this kind of goes even to our family systems framework of looking at things, is a lot of times our kids are sometimes just responding to the environment. They're trying to manage some things. But one of the things that I would say is it does begin with our hearts first. That's why it comes back to, am I just trying to manage behavior here? Am I trying to make my world easier, more convenient, less stressful by getting this kid under control, doing exactly what I want, or am I really stupid? Steering their heart towards the Lord through. Through the gospel? And. And so that's really where as parents, we again, can't. Can't help our kids be enamored and in awe of the Lord if. If we aren't ourselves, if we're just looking for the quick way out and we're trying to just manage things. I would say the most effective parenting begins with our hearts, Our own hearts, our own idols, our own struggles with sin. We have to address that. Paul David Tripp in his parenting book, says the parental heart is the first mission field. That's a great quote, and I love that. Jonathan Holmes, he came out with a book recently called Grounded in Grace, and it's a book on identity. And one thing he says is what we need to pass on to our children is neither an identity that they must earn from us, which is sort of a traditional sense of an identity or an identity they must create for themselves, which is kind of a modern identity. But he says, but we need to give them an identity that's received and not achieved. A gospel identity comes from outside of us and relies on the unchanging, steadfast word of a God who is the final authority. And so when we posture ourselves in that way, I think it's a. It's a wonderful opportunity for us to. To show first our hearts have to be in the right place. We have to see that God is doing a sanctifying work in us with our children. And so as parents, we have to posture ourselves as sheep before we can Truly shepherd, well, the children and the sheep that he's given us. And so. And so that is. It requires humility. It requires, like you said, even moments where we don't get it right to go back and confess because it shows that we have an authority over us who holds us accountable to who we're trying to do the best as we steward his children because we believe they belong to him ultimately, and we will send them out in his ultimate care. And so I think that that's the thing that should help us in those moments of discipline, is we must first check ourselves before the Lord and just say, okay, I'm looking at this behavior. I'm going to send them to the room for a minute and I'm going to say, you wait for a minute, we're going to have a talk. And then you gather yourself for a moment. You ask yourself, help me, Lord, to find out what's going on with my child. What's there beyond just the behavior? Well, some of it's just straight rebellion. Some of it's their own little heart wanting to be autonomous and free and free of authority and be the center authority. And some of it is just other things going on and they're trying to figure out how to do that and how to reconcile it. So definitely modeling confession with our kids, modeling a posture of patience and humility and care. It goes a long way. Quite often when I get teenagers, even younger kids that would come in, it's amazing how freeing and just how comforting it is for them to feel like an adult's wife listening to them, like they're being heard, they're being seen. And that's the one thing I love, is to be in a position to be able to do that. But then to invite mom and dad into that kind of a posture and work and help them learn, what does that look like? What does that feel like? What is required of us as a family to make room for these moments? Because maybe we are too busy and that's why the tempers are flying constantly and they're so short for you used is because we have no time to stop and do these things well. And so that's what I find is what. What do we need to do to give some space and some room for you to be present together, for you to have these moments and seize them when you need to, versus just brushing it off, waiting till something else escalates worse or. Or just coming down quickly, doling out a consequence, and they don't even really match it with the heart level and so those are the things that I think are very helpful for us. And then that allows us, I think when we recognize where our heart is postured in that moment, before we go into any of that, it allows us to move into more grace, sort of a grace driven, you know, focus of discipline. It allows us to say, oh, you know what? I'm expecting perfection. And we're all in process here. And so I think that that's. That's the thing that our kids need to experience from us. And when we model that, that actually means so much more to them than even the words that we can throw out. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you just said so many good things. A lot of really practical things. I love just that idea of understanding our own hearts first and kind of taking the time to pause and say, what's happening here? And, Lord, what would you have me do? And I think that hits for me at kind of, you know, in my own parenting. I feel like a lot of times I'm like, what's the right thing to do? Someone just tell me to do and I'll do it. But what I feel like you've drawn out here is the idea that it is not about formula. It is about walking by faith and saying, am I engaging with the Lord? Am I in his presence? [00:21:53] Speaker B: Am I. [00:21:53] Speaker A: Am I in the Word? Am I steeped in it? Am I thankful and appreciating the truth of the gospel today? And as we do that ourselves, it enables us to better engage with our children. So really, lots of really great things here. You mentioned several resources which we will put. They're going to be in the footnotes of the podcast. So again, we could talk for a really long time about parenting. But I just want to thank you, just Jonah, for all the wisdom that you've brought to us today, and we look forward to the next time. [00:22:25] Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you, Kathy. [00:22:26] Speaker A: Thank you.