[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Welcome to the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, a ministry of Perimeter Church. I'm your host, Caleb Martin. Perimeter Counseling center is a Christ centered, clinically informed group of counselors who are passionate about offering redemptive, holistic and practical principles to guide you through life's challenges. Thanks for joining us today. Welcome back to another episode of the Perimeter Counseling Podcast, here again with Kathy and Karen. So today we're going to talk a little bit about the heart and a little bit about emotions. And by the heart, we really mean. When the Bible says heart, we don't necessarily mean your cardiovascular, physical heart. The Bible uses the word heart to describe the inner person. So sometimes use the soul, heart, spirit, all those are interchangeable for the inner person. And we talk about counseling. It's important to note that the heart and body interact quite a bit and a lot of what counseling is is kind of untangling that aspect. So. But I feel like emotions are the most confusing thing. Right. For us. And so let me read this quote about how some Christians maybe think about emotions. And certainly if you're a non Christian or you're just listening to this, it's kind of from our perspective, but we still want to kind of talk about it from a Christian framework. This is by Alistair Groves. It's a book called Untangling Emotions. Sometimes Christians are more disturbed by their emotions than non Christians are. Christians often see negative emotions, the ones we would describe as feeling bad, as a sign of spiritual failure. Anxiety is proof that you don't trust God. Grief is failure to rest in God's good purposes for your life. Anger is just plain old selfishness. It seems that Christians are never only dealing with negative emotions. Instead, every dark feeling also carries with it a sense of spiritual failure, guilt and shame about having that dark feeling. As a result, negative emotions are to be squashed and repented of immediately rather than explored and should be expressed only when carefully monitored and controlled, preferably while wearing a hazmat suit. Are you guys wearing your hazmat suit? Well, that is a lot in that quote. What are your just initial thoughts as, as you read that even as you think about Christians and how Christians view emotions? [00:02:43] Speaker C: Oftentimes, yeah, I think there's a lot there that I agree that I have experienced in my own life that I see in the counseling room as well. And you know, there was a lot in that quote. So just for example, sometimes I'll sit with someone and the, the difficulty that they have is that they say, I am a Christian, but I still feel these things. And it feels like There's a disconnect between the fact that they are anxious or that they are depressed. And how can I be a Christian if I'm feeling these negative things? And so what we want people to understand is that the emotions themselves are not something that we have to deny or suppress or try to get around or that we shouldn't feel these things. And in fact, we see these emotions all over Scripture. So, so I like this quote because I do think it resonates with so many of us where we feel like to have quote, unquote, negative emotions is a bad thing as a believer. But what we want to do is to really encourage them, like it says, to engage and to explore what's happening here. And how do we, as a believer walk with Jesus in the midst of these, because he's walked through these emotions. So I think this is a great place for us to start. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I agree with you, Kathy. And it also, it just kind of makes me sad that Christians put this extra pressure on themselves because God gave us emotions for a reason. They are in response to what we perceive is happening around us in the world. So, for example, just in this quote, you know, when, when we're sad, it's typically because we're perceiving a loss in our life. And when we're, when we're anxious, we're perceiving danger, and sometimes when we're angry, we're perceiving an injustice. And so in all of those things, we should be moving forward. And those emotions that God gave us are very helpful, and they're a gift from him. So it makes me sad when I say that, because I think as a Christian, then you're dealing with two issues. You're dealing with that hard emotion, and then you're dealing with this shame and guilt that this emotion is bad. And so I think for us, even as counselors, to help them, we have to kind of start, go in and address that issue first and, and unpack what that emotion is there for and why it's God given, and then move into the actual issue of the emotion itself. So I just feel like it's an extra weight when we view emotions negatively like this. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know where all of that comes from exactly, but when you look at the Scriptures, you really see a very different picture than what Christians are feeling. How in this quote describes, they're. If you look at that there's five primary genres of the Psalms. When you look at how theologians categorize, a third of all of them are Lament Psalms, which is really like a prayer in pain, a prayer to God. I think Mark Vogup, in his book Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, describes Lament as a prayer to God in pain. God want he, if the psalms are a prayer book for us to sing songs to him and pray back. He's loud and clear, shouting, tell me about what you're feeling. I know life is hard, and I want to talk to you about it, but for some reason. Yeah. And he knows. Right. And so, yeah, it makes my heart sad, too. And like, come on, let's. Let's go to God. He wants to hear you in those things. And you look at Jesus, right? Jesus was feeling all kinds of emotions throughout his life, and he's a good model for us in that, I think. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So where did that come from, I wonder? That's interesting. [00:06:24] Speaker B: We can do that. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Another podcast. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Well, I think. I know this isn't comprehensive, but I think oftentimes there's a pendulum swing of one camp being that stoic philosophy which really prizes the absence, like maturity is the absence of emotions or control over emotion almost to the extent that all emotions are negative. And then there's. That's one place. But then there's also kind of the current culture of the day that's not necessarily Christian. I think Christians maybe are pushing back on this in some ways, in their stoic belief is that follow your heart and whatever you feel is what's best. And so that's kind of the emotional absolutism of the day. But neither of those are, like, great places to be in. Right. [00:07:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I totally agree with you on that. And I do think. I like that you point out that kind of the culture is shifting, and that could be due to a lot of factors. I grew up the child of immigrant parents, and so for anyone who has been in that boat, our parents did not express a lot of emotion because it kind of got in the way of making it and doing what needed to be done. So there is kind of this cultural shift, I do feel like now towards maybe overemphasis on emotions and allowing emotions to dictate kind of how we respond, even to dictate how we view God, that if I am responding with these negative emotions, then maybe God is not good. And so there is this kind of. I feel like this swing back and forth. And I love that you point out that in the midst of all that, what do we look to? What makes sense? If the whole culture is telling me either don't have feelings or trust my feelings completely how do we know the way forward? And I love that you point out that it is by looking to who Jesus is and how he responded to his very real human emotions. So I think that's a great, great way for us to look, to move forward. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the. A couple examples I look at Jesus that just baffle me a little bit are like John 11, when Jesus is. Gets word of Lazarus, right? His best friend is dying, and then he. It looks like he kind of intentionally goes slow to let him die. And then, you know, he's saying along the way that he has a purpose in doing this. So he gets to the grave. And if he's a stoic, he would just raise him from the dead. But he stops and he weeps. It doesn't make logical sense if Jesus is like, oh, it's just about, you know, life is just about getting things done. But there's also an experience. Jesus, humanity comes through, I think, and that he truly felt sad, probably angry at death, probably a lot of different emotions as he was grieving, that even though he knew he was about to raise him from the dead. So the efficient thing would be like, why are you crying? Just raise him from the dead and you'll feel better. But he. He truly felt this. And it's interesting. And then even right when he's in the Garden of Gethsemane, right as he's going to the cross, he asked three times for the Father to if there's any other way for me to go to the cross. Well, if you think about it, our theology talks about a covenant of redemption that was kind of eternity past. So you think about, he knew he was going to do this the whole time. So. Well, Jesus, you knew this. We could, from a stoic mindset, we could say, why are you even asking this question? But he also doesn't follow his emotions. His deepest desire is to follow, to glorify his Father. Which is interesting. Which I think is that balance, is that you feel your emotions, but you do act according to your first love, whatever you love the most at the desired level. Do you have any thoughts on that? [00:10:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's. That's another great point. And that, you know, when we look at what Scripture says about the place of our emotions and how do we understand how to then act and respond to our emotions? What you just said reminds me of Luke 6:45, which says, out of the overflow of the heart, the, the mouth speaks. And I would say, not only does the mouth speak, but kind of everything else. Flows out from that place of the heart. And when it talks about the heart, there it is talking about what you just mentioned, which is the. What we love, but what is our first love. And so when we're looking at how are we responding to various situations, like Karen, like you pointed out, our emotions are a gift. Our emotions are God given. He created us with emotion. And yet sometimes we can allow our emotions to be overpowering, over controlling. Other times we try and suppress those same emotions. And so we. It helps us, I think, in the counseling room to look at what is happening at the level of the heart when we're talking about our emotions. What is it in that moment that I am most deeply desiring and what am I wanting, and how are my emotions connected to that? Because our emotions are reflecting all of that that's going inside. So our emotions are a great place to start when we're looking at what's really happening here. They are kind of like an indicator for us. Okay, I need to pay attention here. And that helps us to remember it's not that my emotion is controlling me, but it is giving me an alert as to what is really happening at the level of the heart. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:20] Speaker C: I think a lot about the movie Inside out and how it portrays our emotions as these little things in our brains that kind of run things, and they dictate based on which emotion is controlling at the time. It tells us what to do and really controls what to do. But from a biblical perspective, that's actually not how our emotions work. They are for us to pay attention to because they have meaning, but they are pointing to what's really driving us, which is our deep desires. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think about in Jeremiah 17, where it says the heart is deceitful above all things, that we have to be really careful that. That when we experience emotions that we're not always saying that they're true. So if we're experiencing something that seems scary or then we have to. If we can't understand it in reality, that's why community is so important. It's like, I know Jeff Norris has said us a lot of times about how we can't see our own eyebrows. And so when we are experiencing extreme emotions. I've not heard you say that. He said, unless they're really bushy, then you can. Hopefully somebody would tell you before it got to that point where you could see them. But that's. That's why we need fellowship. That's why community is so important. When people point out to us, like, hey, You're a little over anxious about this. Rather than getting mad at the messenger, maybe we should stop and say, lord, maybe, maybe I am. And so that's a way for God to sanctify us and help us to grow in our faith as we depend on him more and more. God doesn't want us living in anxiety. So we just have to be careful with our hearts so that we don't allow them to rule our lives and that we don't even understand our hearts fully. We need, we need the word of God, but we need other believers as well to speak into those things in our lives that we can't see. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the phrases I use a lot with people is emotions are not good leaders, but they responders, they're indicator lights. Kind of like a check engine light shows you what, or it shows you that there's something going on. Now that's a, that illustration just kind of portrays emotions as just negative, which I don't think that they always are, but it does show that, you know, there's something underneath the hood. And what would be wrong to do is to take out my Sharpie and color over the check engine light every time it comes up. But unfortunately, maybe for efficiency or maybe that's what we were taught, that's what we often do. But what you guys are saying too is we need to almost be curious about our emotions. And in that curiosity, God can really work in meeting us in those emotions. Right? [00:15:02] Speaker A: I think that's what he desires, to meet us in those emotions. [00:15:05] Speaker B: And I think one of the claims that I even want to make is as we think about not falling into the trap of stoicism or emotional absolutism, but that Christ is the most emotionally healthy person to ever lived. He is the image of the invisible God. He shows us how we're supposed to live this life. And he was a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. He was a man that experienced very deep emotions. But as we've talked about, it's like the psalmist a lot of ways, like David, he processed those emotions, he paid attention to them, and he took them to his father. And he wasn't led by them, but he was led by ultimately like his deepest desire to glorify God. And we understand that that's challenging. And one podcast episode is not going to help you fully do that. That's why we do counseling as a craft and that's why there's plenty of other counseling folks and there's plenty of, of books written about emotions. But we just want this to be a little intro for you to say if you're feeling strongly, you don't have to have shame about those emotions, but let us let people, friends around you. Let your church, trusted friends help you navigate those emotions. And we would love to chat with you more about that and are praying for you even as we talk about emotions as they're so, so hard to navigate. So thank you, Karen and Kathy, for another great conversation. And thanks for joining us today. Look forward to next time. [00:16:40] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:16:41] Speaker A: Thank you.